From rideau3 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 12:09:05 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 20:09:05 -0600
Subject: BAK: Agoranomic.org down
Message-ID: <4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>

Attention Agorans!

Agoranomic.org is down. Since actions taken to a-b or a-o will still 
occur even if the site is down, please list what you've done to a-b/a-o 
since the last message to ensure the game state is consistent and 
refrain from taking actions to those lists in the meanwhile.

I intended to deputize for Assessor to resolve proposals, withdrawn 2 No 
Confidences, played one on the IADoP, and initiated an Insulator 
election (periodic election). None of these are actions being taken in 
this message; rather they will have already occurred when the list comes 
up and propagates the messages.

-coppro


From comexk at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 12:50:02 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:50:02 -0400
Subject: BAK: Agoranomic.org down
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
References: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909121950q1c84ff1cm4d09e1958287b146@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Attention Agorans!
>
> Agoranomic.org is down. Since actions taken to a-b or a-o will still
> occur even if the site is down, please list what you've done to a-b/a-o
> since the last message to ensure the game state is consistent and
> refrain from taking actions to those lists in the meanwhile.

According to CFJ 2058, an action isn't taken until the players
generally receive the message, though the judge's arguments are
somewhat confusing...

-- 
-c.


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 13 13:04:25 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 21:04:25 -0600
Subject: BAK: Agoranomic.org down
In-Reply-To: <2970_1252810224_4AAC5DF0_2970_1140916_1_6bf32280909121950q1c84ff1cm4d09e1958287b146@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
	<2970_1252810224_4AAC5DF0_2970_1140916_1_6bf32280909121950q1c84ff1cm4d09e1958287b146@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAC6139.5010705@gmail.com>

comex wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Attention Agorans!
>>
>> Agoranomic.org is down. Since actions taken to a-b or a-o will still
>> occur even if the site is down, please list what you've done to a-b/a-o
>> since the last message to ensure the game state is consistent and
>> refrain from taking actions to those lists in the meanwhile.
> 
> According to CFJ 2058, an action isn't taken until the players
> generally receive the message, though the judge's arguments are
> somewhat confusing...
> 
Oh, right. If I do not have any No Confidence cards, I perform the 
following:

I withdraw 2 No Confidence cards.
I agree to the following pledge entitled "Ensure things fail":
{ This is a public pledge. coppro CAN act on behalf of it by 
announcement, but SHALL NOT cause it to terminate if it owns any assets. }
I transfer all my zm to Ensure things fail.
I play No Confidence, specifying IADoP.
I initiate an Insulator election.

-coppro


From charles.w.walker at googlemail.com  Sun Sep 13 21:23:48 2009
From: charles.w.walker at googlemail.com (Charles Walker)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:23:48 +0100
Subject: BAK: Test
Message-ID: <dc05cc2c0909130423m5f67529fyf6781b117d9b271e@mail.gmail.com>

Like coppro, I'm just setting up filters.

-- 
C-walker (Charles Walker)


From comexk at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 00:31:09 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:31:09 -0400
Subject: BAK: Agoranomic.org down
In-Reply-To: <2974_1252811085_4AAC614D_2974_4467442_1_4AAC6139.5010705@gmail.com>
References: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
	<2970_1252810224_4AAC5DF0_2970_1140916_1_6bf32280909121950q1c84ff1cm4d09e1958287b146@mail.gmail.com>
	<2974_1252811085_4AAC614D_2974_4467442_1_4AAC6139.5010705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909130731n57c791e7v7efac7674aafb61a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> According to CFJ 2058, an action isn't taken until the players
>> generally receive the message, though the judge's arguments are
>> somewhat confusing...
>>
> Oh, right. If I do not have any No Confidence cards, I perform the
> following:

According to Bob's site, e has a No Confidence card, so I'm ignoring
the rest.  I suspect there's a side of this we won't see until
agoranomic.org's back up..
-- 
-c.


From geoffspear at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 00:52:58 2009
From: geoffspear at gmail.com (Geoffrey Spear)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:52:58 -0400
Subject: BAK: [Promotor] Pool Report
Message-ID: <cf0c2a990909130752g724669bfi39320f643259b38a@mail.gmail.com>

Proposal Pool

Date last ratified: 24 May 2009
Date of ratified report: 19 May 2009

Disclaimer: proposals submitted to a-b since it went down may or may
not be in the Pool, and aren't shown here because I haven't received
them.

The proposal pool contains the following proposals:
[This file lists the contents of the proposal pool.

File generated at 2009-09-13T14:52:49Z.  Not necessarily up to date as
of then; recent changes may be missing.

NOT A SOURCE FILE: automatically generated, do not edit.
]
}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: ordinary
ai: 1.0
interest: 3
proposer: ais523
title: A Terrible Proposal
submit_date: 2009-06-16
submit_mid: <1245152362.4947.4.camel at dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
distributability: undistributable

Create a rule with the following text:
{{{
Any set of persons who between them have at least 10 instances of the
patent title Champion can create arbitrary instruments (which need not
be rules or proposals) by unanimous consent, followed by announcement of
the fact to a public forum. Such instruments are authorised to change
the rules.
}}}

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 1
proposer: Yally
title: Creative Offices
submit_date: 2009-06-11
submit_mid: <c6f69ee60906110825v46a48307p846f270cc53c9139 at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

Create a new power-2 rule entitled "Creative Offices" and the following text:

      A creative office is a role defined as such by the rules. All
      creative offices are offices. When a player ceases to hold a
      creative office, then, rules to the contrary notwithstanding,
      that player CAN NOT come to hold that office again for 3 months.
      When a player has held a creative office consecutively for 3
      months, any player CAN cause that creative office to become
      vacant by announcement. The IADoP tracks which players, if any,
      are not permitted to hold a particular creative office

Amend the first sentence of Rule 2247 to read:

      The Janitor is a creative office; its holder is responsible for
      cleaning the rules.
Amend the first sentence of Rule 2216 to read:

      The Anarchist is a creative office; its holder is responsible
      for proposing the repeal of rules.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 3.0
interest: 1
proposer: c.
title: R101 Safety Net
submit_date: 2009-06-24
submit_mid: <6bf32280906241314t7321114cg4d04903a565d188a at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

Enact a new Power=3 Rule reading:

      comex CAN cause this rule to amend itself by announcement, as
      long as e published the amendment for public review at least 24
      hours ago.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 0
proposer: G.
title: fix ancient cards
submit_date: 2009-07-21
submit_mid: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0907211049570.20431 at hymn32.u.washington.edu>
distributability: undistributable

Amend Rule 2262 (The Deck of Justice) by replacing:
       * Discard Picking  - Indicate a card that was played or
                            destroyed in the past 72 hours.  It is
                            transferred to your hand.
with:
       * Discard Picking  - Indicate a card that was played or
                            destroyed in the past 72 hours.  It is
                            created in your hand.


Amend Rule 2261 (The Deck of Change) by replacing the word "discard"
with "destroy" where it appears in the rule.


Amend Rule 2260 (The Deck of Government) by replacing "Vote Power"
with "voting limit" where it appears in the rule.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: ordinary
ai: 1.0
interest: 3
proposer: Darth Cliche
coauthors:
title: O RLY?
submit_date: 2009-07-27
submit_mid: <00163646d64ec75156046fb15e63 at google.com>
distributability: undistributable

ais523 wins.
Rodlen wins.
Every player who voted FOR on this Proposal wins.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: ordinary
ai: 1.0
interest: 1
proposer: Murphy
coauthors:
title: We don't need this exception
submit_date: 2009-08-12
submit_mid: <4A834F26.5080109 at socal.rr.com>
distributability: undistributable

Amend Rule 2168 (Extending the voting period) by removing the text
"and the vote collector".

[If e wants to resolve an unpopular proposal during the second week,
despite having voted FOR it emself, then e can retract eir vote first.]

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 3.0
interest: 0
proposer: c.
coauthors:
title: null
submit_date: 2009-08-17
submit_mid: <6bf32280908171132g86a5962td3389a631dbcb5de at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

Create a Power-3 rule with text:
{{{
c. CAN cause this rule to amend itself with support.
}}}

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 3.0
interest: 1
proposer: coppro
coauthors:
title: FIXME
submit_date: 2009-08-27
submit_mid: <4A970A36.6040508 at gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

Ratify the following document:
{
Proposal 6448 did not take effect.
}

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 1
proposer: Pavitra
coauthors:
title: Sensible Salary Switch
submit_date: 2009-09-01
submit_mid: <4A9D7C1C.6040800 at gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

Amend Rule 2258 (Decks, Draws, and Salaries) to read:
      Any deck of cards defined by this rule is known as a Basic Deck.
      Each first-class player has four fungible Salary switches tracked
      by the Accountor. The possible values of a Salary switch are the
      defined basic decks.

      The default value of a Salary switch is Change if its owner has at
      most one other Salary switch set to Change, or otherwise Justice
      if its owner has no other Salary switch set to Justice, or
      otherwise Government.

      A player CAN change the value of any of eir own Salary switches by
      announcement.

      At the beginning of each month, each first-class player earns a
      number of draws from each Basic Deck equal to the number of
      eir Salary switches that were flipped to that deck at the
      beginning of the month.  As soon as possible after the beginning
      of each month, the Accountor SHALL publish the state of each
      first-class player's Salary switches as they were at the beginning
      of the month.

      Office Salary is a switch for each office tracked by the
      Accountor, with possible values being the names of each basic
      deck (default Government).  The holder of each OFFICE CAN change
      that office's salary by announcement.  At the beginning of each
      week, each holder of an office earns a number of draws from the
      deck indicated by the switch equal to the interest index for
      that office.

      When a first-class player registers, e earns two draws from each
      basic deck.

      The Deck of Government is a deck of cards tracked by the Grand
      Poobah.

      The Deck of Justice is a deck of cards tracked by the Insulator.

      The Deck of Change is a deck of cards tracked by the Anarchist.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 1
proposer: Murphy
coauthors:
title: Kill it with fire
submit_date: 2009-09-01
submit_mid: <4A9D2389.1030603 at socal.rr.com>
distributability: undistributable

Terminate the contract known as Points Party at the time this
proposal was submitted.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 1
proposer: coppro
coauthors:
title: Justiciar Swap
submit_date: 2009-09-06
submit_mid: <4AA433DA.5030309 at gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

Amend Rule 2246 to read as follows:
       A judicial case may be submitted to the Justiciar.  For such a
       case, the Justiciar CAN, in a timely manner and by announcement,
       either accept or reject the case. Until the time limit expires
       or the Justiciar rejects the case, the CotC CANNOT perform any
       duties with regards to the case and does not incur any obligations
       with regards to it.

       If the Justiciar accepts the case, e switches places with the CotC
       entirely with regards to that case; e receives all obligations and
       all powers the CotC would receive, and the CotC receives all
       obligations and powers the Justiciar would receive. This includes
       any secondary duties required to fulfill obligations (such as
       rotating the bench). This takes precedence over Rules that would
       otherwise assign duties and powers regarding a judicial case to
       the Clerk of the Courts or the Justiciar. A player CAN deputize
       for Justiciar to perform these duties as if it were an office.

       All persons are encouraged to submit a case to the Justiciar
       only when there is a good reason not to submit it to the Clerk
       of the Courts.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: ordinary
ai: 1.0
interest: 0
proposer: BobTHJ
title: Advertising Anarchy
submit_date: 2009-09-10
submit_mid: <56732cfd0909101326t5c450a96m53ff14cacf61899e at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: distributable
distributability flipped: 2009-09-10 00:00:00

Repeal R2135

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: ordinary
ai: 1.0
interest: 0
proposer: c.
title: I want to be Justiciar again!
submit_date: 2009-09-11
submit_mid: <6bf32280909110459m7bc587f4v5c77cc03ac029888 at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: distributable
distributability flipped: 2009-09-11 00:00:00

comex wins.

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 1
proposer: Pavitra
coauthors:
title: No Vacancy v.3
submit_date: 2009-09-10
submit_mid: <4AA890B0.1000601 at gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

If a Rule titled "Assumption of Vacant Offices" exists, then amend it by
replacing its entire text with the following {}-delimited text;
otherwise, create a new Power-2 rule, "Assumption of Vacant Offices",
with the following {}-delimited text:
{
      Assumption is an elected office switch with values Postulated
      (default) and Assumed. Changes to Assumption are secured.

      An active first-class player can make emself the holder of an
      elected office by announcement, provided that both

        (1) the office is either vacant or Assumed, and

        (2) there is no election for that office currently in progress.

      Upon doing so, the office's Assumption is flipped to Assumed.

      When the holder of an office ceases to be an active player, the
      office's Assumption is flipped to Assumed.

      When a person comes to hold an office, or would come to hold an
      office if e did not hold it already, by a means other than the
      one provided by this Rule, then the Assumption of that office is
      flipped to Postulated.
}

Amend Rule 2255 (Major Arcana) by replacing "vacant" with "vacant or
Assumed".

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 0
proposer: Wooble
title: <none>
submit_date: 2009-09-11
submit_mid: <cf0c2a990909111128l75b4b6abm4e075f34a8240cd at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: distributable
distributability flipped: 2009-09-11 00:00:00

In R2156, replace "The voting limit" with "The initial voting limit"

[Redoes the change made by P5985 which was overwritten by P6010]

}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{

chamber: democratic
ai: 2.0
interest: 3
proposer: C-walker
coauthors:
title: Card Rewrite
submit_date: 2009-09-13
submit_mid: <dc05cc2c0909130748g1ce2f0e1t23924c46a505b1cb at mail.gmail.com>
distributability: undistributable

[ Repeals 5 of the card Rules while keeping the same level of
functionality. Repeals monthly salaries. Creates a per-deck hand limit
system. Makes Major Arcana a separate (non-Cards) set of imposed
offices. Secures creation and destruction of cards. Rewrites the three
deck rules. Makes the Dealor, a new office, the single office in
charge of cards. ]

Replace the entire text of Rule 2253 (Cards) with:

     Cards are a class of assets whose ownership is restricted to
     players. Each card has exactly one type and exactly one deck;
     each type of card is a currency. Creation and destruction of
     cards is secured.

     The Dealor is an office, and recordkeepor of Cards. The Dealor
     CAN, by announcement, create and destroy Cards, but SHALL NOT do
     so except as allowed by the Rules.

     Each card type has a Frequency, tracked by the Dealor, which is
     a non-negative integer defaulting to 0. Changing a card type's
     Frequency is secured.  The Dealor CAN, without 2 objections,
     change a specified card type's Frequency.

     When a player 'earns a draw' from a specified deck, the Dealor
     SHALL, as soon as possible, create a randomly selected card from
     that deck in the possession of that player, with the probability
     of each card being selected equal to its Frequency divided by
     the total Frequencies of all cards in that deck.

     When a first-class player registers, e earns two draws from each
     deck.

Repeal Rule 2254 (Position Cards), Rule 2256 (Exploit Cards), Rule
2266 (Effect Cards), Rule 2257 (Dealing Cards) and Rule 2258 (Decks,
Draws, and Salaries).

Replace the entire text of Rule 2259 (Hand Limits) with:

     Each player has a Hand Limit, tracked by the Dealor, which is a
     non-negative integer with a default of 5 for first-class players
     and 0 for all others.

     As soon as possible after the beginning of each month, the
     Deakor SHALL do the following X times, where X is the number of
     decks in existence, except with Y replaced with the name of a
     different deck each time:

      For each player who owned more cards from the Y deck than eir
      Hand Limit at the beginning of the month, destroy Y cards in
      eir possession until e owns a number of Y cards equal to eir
      Hand Limit.

Replace the entire text of Rule 2260 (The Deck of Government) with:

     When a player completes the weekly or monthly duties for an
     office, or wins an election for an office, e earns a number of
     draws from the deck of Government equal to the Interest Index of
     the office.

     The following is a list of the types of cards in the Government
     deck, and how players CAN play (spend, destroy) each type of
     card:

     * Roll Call
     A player CAN play a Roll Call, indicating a player and an
     ongoing ordinary Agoran Decision with more than 24 hours
     remaining in its voting period. The indicated player's voting
     limit on that Decision is increased by one.

     * Debate-o-Matic
     A player CAN play a Debate-o-matic, Indicating an ongoing
     ordinary Agoran Decision. It becomes democratic.

     * Arm-Twist
     A player CAN play an Arm-Twist, indicating a player and an
     ongoing ordinary Agoran Decision. The indicated player's voting
     limit on that Decision is increased by one.

     * On the Nod
     A play CAN play an On the Nod, indicating an ongoing ordinary
     Agoran Decision that has not been filibustered. That Decision is
     rubberstamped.

     * Kill Bill
     A player CAN play a Kill Bill, indicating an ongoing ordinary
     Agoran Decision. That Decision is vetoed.

     * Lobbyist
     A player CAN play a Lobbyist to increase the caste of a
     specified player other them emself by one.

     * Local Election
     A player CAN play a Local Election, indicating a non-Savage
     player. The indicated player's caste is decreased by one.

     * No Confidence
     A player CAN play a No Confidence, indicating an office. If
     there is an ongoing election for the office, it is canceled
     (there is no change in its holder). An election for the office
     is initiated.

     * Goverment Ball
     If a player holds an "X Ball" card (where X is the name of a
     deck) for each deck, that player satisfies the winning condition
     of Win by Lotto. Cleanup Procedure: For each other deck one such
     corresponding Ball card is destroyed.

Replace the entire text of Rule 2261 (The Deck of Change) with:

     When an interested proposal is adopted, its author earns a
     number of draws from the Change deck equal to the Interest Index
     of the adopted proposal, and the coauthors of the proposal (if
     any) earn one draw from the Change deck each.

     The following is a list of the types of cards in the Change
     deck, and how players CAN play (spend, destroy) each type of
     card:

     * Distrib-u-Matic
     A player CAN play a Distrib-u-matic, indicating an
     Undistributable proposal. It becomes Distributable

     * Committee
     A player CAN play a Committee, indicating a Distributable
     proposal. It becomes Undistributable.

     * Your Turn
      A player CAN play a Your Turn, indicating a player. The
      indicated player SHOULD destroy at least one card in eir
      possession in the next 72 hours. If e fails to do so, the player
      of Your Turn CAN once destroy a card in the indicated player's
      possession by announcement in the subsequent week.

     * Presto!
     A player CAN play a Presto!, indicating a player and a card
     owned by that player. The card is transferred to the Presto!
     player.

     * Not Your Turn
     A player CAN play a Not Your Turn, indicating a given playing of
     a card that occurred in the last 24 hours. That play is canceled
     and did not occur. If this would lead at any time in the 24
     hours after the playing of this card to a paradox which would
     prevent its play, its play is unsuccessful.

     * Change Ball
     If a player hold an "X Ball" card (where X is the name of a
     deck) for each other deck you satisfy  the winning condition of
     Win by Lotto. Cleanup Procedure: For each other basic deck one
     such corresponding Ball card is destroyed.

     * Supersize Me
     A player CAN play Supersize Me, specifying a player. That
     player's Hand Limit is increased by 1.

     * Shrink Potion
     A player CAN play a Shrink Potion, specifying a player. That
     player's Hand Limit is decreased by 10% (rounded up).

Replace the entire text of Rule 2262 (The Deck of Justice) with:

     When a judge judges a judicial case within the time limit for
     judging that case, e earns a number of draws from the Justice
     deck equal to the Interest Index of the case. If a judge's
     judgement is OVERTURNED or REASSIGNED on appeal, any player CAN
     destroy any Cards the judge earned for judging the case by
     announcement.

     The following is a list of the types of cards in the Justice
     deck, and how players CAN play (spend, destroy) each type of
     card:

      * Absolv-o-Matic
     A player CAN play an Absolv-o-matic, indicating a player with at
     least one Rest. A Rest in that player's possession destroyed.

      * Stool Pigeon
     A player CAN play a Stool Pigeon, indicating a player who has
     not been indicated for this card within the last 72 hours. A
     Rest is created in that player's possession.

      * Drop your Weapon
     A player CAN play Drop your Weapon, indicating a player and a
     card held by that player. The card is destroyed.

      * Discard Picking
     A player CAN play Discard Picking, indicating a type of card
     where at least one card of that type was destroyed in the past
     72 hours; a card of that type is created in eir possession.

      * Justice Ball
     If a player owns an "X Ball" card (where X is the name of a
     deck) for each other deck you satisfy  the winning condition of
     Win by Lotto. Cleanup Procedure: For each other basic deck one
     such corresponding Ball card is destroyed.

      * Dunce Cap
     Owning a Dunce Cap card is a Losing Condition.  The holder of
     this card CANNOT destroy it by announcement, and CANNOT transfer
     it unless e has held it for at least one week, other Rules to
     the contrary notwithstanding.

In Rule 2255 (Major Arcana), replace

     The Major Arcana is a deck of Position cards whose dealer is the
     Herald.  The following Major Arcana cards are defined:

with:

      The following is a list of the Prerogatives, a set of imposed
      offices with the indicated privileges and abilities. The holder
      of a Prerogative CAN change its holder by announcement.

and retitle Rule 2255 to "Prerogatives".

In Rule 402 (Identity of the Speaker), replace

     Once per quarter, and once after gaining the office, the Speaker
     CAN Form a Government by publishing a list of every defined
     Major Arcana card, and listing (for each card) a different
     active player who holds the Patent Title Champion.  Such a
     formation of government, when triggered, has the self-ratifying
     effect of transferring the indicated cards to the indicated
     players.

with:

     Once per quarter, and once after gaining the office, the Speaker
     CAN Form a Government by publishing a list of every defined
     Prerogative office, and listing (for each office) a different
     active player who holds the Patent Title Champion.  Such a
     formation of government, when triggered, has the self-ratifying
     effect of causing the indicated offices to be held by the
     indicated players.


From charles.w.walker at googlemail.com  Mon Sep 14 00:57:36 2009
From: charles.w.walker at googlemail.com (Charles Walker)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:57:36 +0100
Subject: BAK: [Promotor] Pool Report
In-Reply-To: <22666_1252853616_4AAD076F_22666_7771469_3_cf0c2a990909130752g724669bfi39320f643259b38a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22666_1252853616_4AAD076F_22666_7771469_3_cf0c2a990909130752g724669bfi39320f643259b38a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dc05cc2c0909130757s4d69765bs84371012b3986111@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Geoffrey Spear <geoffspear at gmail.com> wrote:
> chamber: democratic
> ai: 3.0
> interest: 1
> proposer: coppro
> coauthors:
> title: FIXME
> submit_date: 2009-08-27
> submit_mid: <4A970A36.6040508 at gmail.com>
> distributability: undistributable

CoE: I remember making this Distributable in the message in which I
self-audited (before the audit, so there's no ambiguity as to whether
I had the right card).

-- 
C-walker (Charles Walker)


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 02:34:31 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:34:31 -0600
Subject: BAK: [Janitor] Cleanup Proposal
Message-ID: <4AAD1F17.4030602@gmail.com>

Sorry folks, only one Janitor proposal this week, as I'm quite busy:

Redundant Redundancy Cleanup (AI=2, II=0)
{{{
In R1607, delete the paragraph reading
       A player CAN flip a specified proposal to Distributable without
       Objection.
[The prior paragraph is sufficient.]
}}}

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 02:35:23 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:35:23 -0600
Subject: BAK: [Accountor] Salary Report
Message-ID: <4AAD1F4B.7020508@gmail.com>

PLAYERS' SALARIES (monthly draws from decks)
BobTHJ              Change,Change,Government,Government
C-Walker            Change,Change,Government,Government
c.                  Change,Change,Change,Government
coppro              Government,Government,Justice,Justice
Pavitra             Change,Change,Change,Government
Taral               Change,Government,Justice,Justice
Wooble              Change,Government,Justice,Justice
All other players   Change,Change,Government,Justice

OFFICERS' SALARIES
Accountor    Change
Ambassador   Government
Anarchist    Government
Assessor     Government
CotC         Government
Grand Poobah Government
Herald       Change
IADoP        Government
Insulator    Government
Janitor      Government
Notary       Justice
Promotor     Government
Registrar    Government
Rulekeepor   Government
Scorekeepor  Government
Tailor       Justice
Speaker      Government

THINGS WITH WEIRD HAND LIMITS
None

RECENT EVENTS
10 Jul 2009   coppro flips Tailor's salary to Justice
               (other changes in message were not changes)
10 Jul 2009   BobTHJ flips Scorekeepor's salary to Justice
11 Jul 2009   Taral flips eir salary to Change,Justice,Justice,
               Government
17 Jul 2009   G. flips Herald's salary to Justice
23 Jul 09     BobTHJ flips Scorekeepor's salary to Government
24 Jul 09     G. flips the Herald's salary to Change
30 Jul 09     Pavitra flips eir salary to Change,Change,Change,
               Government.
30 Jul 09     BobTHJ flips eir salary to Change,Change,Government,
               Government.
30 Jul 09     c. flips eir salary to Change,Change,Change,Government.
31 Jul 09     Wooble flips eir salary to Change, Government, Justice,
               Justice
  6 Aug 09      coppro flips Grand Poobah Salary to Change
                coppro flips eir salary to Justice,Justice,Government,
                Change
  9 Aug 09      C-Walker flips eir salary to Change,Change,Government,
                Government
10 Aug 09      coppro flips eir salary to Change,Change,Justice,Justice
[Beginning of current week]
27 Aug 09      ais523 flips Notary Salary to Justice
31 Aug 09      coppro flips eir salary to Government,Government,Justice,
                Justice
[Beginning of current month]
01 Sep 09      C-walker flips Ambassador Salary to Government.
[Time of last report]

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 02:46:30 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:46:30 -0600
Subject: BAK: Advance NoV
Message-ID: <4AAD21E6.1020409@gmail.com>

I publish an NoV alleging that Murphy violated R208, a 3-power Rule, by 
failing to resolve the Agoran Decision to adopt proposal 6473 as soon as 
possible after the voting period ended. I contest this NoV. I initiate a 
criminal case from this NoV.

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 03:24:11 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:24:11 -0600
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Anarchist] Deck of Change Report
In-Reply-To: <56732cfd0909101319s5678a027xaf69a5e00431010f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56732cfd0909101319s5678a027xaf69a5e00431010f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAD2ABB.80600@gmail.com>

Roger Hicks wrote:
> c.
>    Committee x3
>    Distrib-u-Matic x5
>    Supersize Me x2
> 
> coppro
>    Committee x2
>    Distrib-u-Matic x4
>    Your Turn x3

CoE: c-walker probably has some Cards.
CoE on the Insulator's report: c-walker probably has some Cards

I transfer a prop from BobTHJ, who copped out, to Tiger, who didn't.

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 03:32:03 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:32:03 -0600
Subject: BAK: Banking
Message-ID: <4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>

I IBA-deposit a WRV.
I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 03:33:22 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:33:22 -0600
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>

Sean Hunt wrote:
> I IBA-deposit a WRV.
> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
> 
> -coppro
Oops.
I act on behalf of "Ensure things fail" to transfer all its zm to me.
I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
I transfer all my zm to "Ensure things fail."
-coppro



From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 03:38:47 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:38:47 -0600
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAD2E27.9000802@gmail.com>

Sean Hunt wrote:
> Sean Hunt wrote:
>> I IBA-deposit a WRV.
>> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
>>
>> -coppro
> Oops.
> I act on behalf of "Ensure things fail" to transfer all its zm to me.
> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
> I transfer all my zm to "Ensure things fail."
> -coppro
YARGH.

I submit the following proposal and play Distrib-u-Matic to make it 
Distributable.
That's Dumb (AI=2, II=1)
{{{
Enact a new rule with the following text:
       A player CAN act on behalf of a contract where permitted by that
       contract's text.
}}}

I intend, without objection, to amend "Ensure things fail" by adding the 
sentence "coppro CAN, by announcement, cause this contract to take any 
action. coppro CAN, by announcement, make any Contract Change to this 
contract."

-coppro


From comexk at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 03:43:18 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:43:18 -0400
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <2966_1252863539_4AAD2E32_2966_288494_1_4AAD2E27.9000802@gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
	<2966_1252863539_4AAD2E32_2966_288494_1_4AAD2E27.9000802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909131043t9e7339ew25ea16ea24e9fa55@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I submit the following proposal and play Distrib-u-Matic to make it
> Distributable.
> That's Dumb (AI=2, II=1)
> {{{
> Enact a new rule with the following text:
> ? ? ? A player CAN act on behalf of a contract where permitted by that
> ? ? ? contract's text.
> }}}

Just add it to R2264-- or make your holding company a person, because
non-persons taking actions is a *very* messy proposition.  Consider
the repeated use of "person" in R478...

-- 
-c.


From kerim at u.washington.edu  Mon Sep 14 03:45:56 2009
From: kerim at u.washington.edu (Kerim Aydin)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:45:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Ambassador Stuff
In-Reply-To: <dc05cc2c0909120853h28c92fdfpb2e35441ef3f2f33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131045560.9797@hymn32.u.washington.edu>


On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, Charles Walker wrote:
> I've just realised that dependant actions are still broken. Thanks for
> the withdrawal anyway.

You know, I haven't followed all the ins and outs of the arguments, but
I really don't thing dependent actions have to be judged broken.

Consider:

Originally, the rule relied on a single list-based linguistic convention 
to decide whether the A, B, and C were logically 'A and B and C'  vs.
'A or B or C'.  (The IFF contains no qualifier like "IFF all are true; 
if at least one is true").  The original rule was IFF A ,B and, C which,
in linguistic convention, maps to the logical IFF A and B and C.

The new rule is IFF A, B and, C, D which breaks the common linguistic
mapping.  So there's no absolute guarantee that this maps to IFF A and
B and C and D.  Given the placement of the 'and', it could just as easily 
map to IFF (A and B and C) or D which is not broken at all, reasonable,
and in keeping with the intent where the rule is unclear and for the
good of the game.  The alternate that A, B and C, D => A and B and C and D 
does not keep to linguistic convention, is against the intent, and not 
particularly for the good of the game.  There's no support that one 
should infer "IFF all of" versus "at least one of" in list qualifiers 
in general.
  
Forgive me if this has been refuted already, I may have missed a subtlety 
and this is up to a judge (given an actual judgement), but, just sayin'.

-G.





From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Mon Sep 14 04:17:55 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:17:55 -0700
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <2964_1252863539_4AAD2E32_2964_123625_1_4AAD2E27.9000802@gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
	<2964_1252863539_4AAD2E32_2964_123625_1_4AAD2E27.9000802@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAD3753.80500@socal.rr.com>

coppro wrote:

>        A player CAN act on behalf of a contract where permitted by that
>        contract's text.

It's not obvious that non-persons CAN act, period.  (Rules may be a
special case in that debate.)



From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Mon Sep 14 04:33:47 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:33:47 -0700
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Ambassador Stuff
In-Reply-To: <22664_1252864076_4AAD304C_22664_4294173_1_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131045560.9797@hymn32.u.washington.edu>
References: <22664_1252864076_4AAD304C_22664_4294173_1_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131045560.9797@hymn32.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <4AAD3B0B.6030208@socal.rr.com>

G. wrote:

> You know, I haven't followed all the ins and outs of the arguments, but
> I really don't thing dependent actions have to be judged broken.
> 
> Consider:
> 
> Originally, the rule relied on a single list-based linguistic convention 
> to decide whether the A, B, and C were logically 'A and B and C'  vs.
> 'A or B or C'.  (The IFF contains no qualifier like "IFF all are true; 
> if at least one is true").  The original rule was IFF A ,B and, C which,
> in linguistic convention, maps to the logical IFF A and B and C.
> 
> The new rule is IFF A, B and, C, D which breaks the common linguistic
> mapping.  So there's no absolute guarantee that this maps to IFF A and
> B and C and D.  Given the placement of the 'and', it could just as easily 
> map to IFF (A and B and C) or D which is not broken at all, reasonable,
> and in keeping with the intent where the rule is unclear and for the
> good of the game.  The alternate that A, B and C, D => A and B and C and D 
> does not keep to linguistic convention, is against the intent, and not 
> particularly for the good of the game.  There's no support that one 
> should infer "IFF all of" versus "at least one of" in list qualifiers 
> in general.
>   
> Forgive me if this has been refuted already, I may have missed a subtlety 
> and this is up to a judge (given an actual judgement), but, just sayin'.

This is basically how c. argued when judging CFJ 2670.



From kerim at u.washington.edu  Mon Sep 14 04:43:22 2009
From: kerim at u.washington.edu (Kerim Aydin)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Ambassador Stuff
In-Reply-To: <25158_1252866869_4AAD3B34_25158_7628759_1_4AAD3B0B.6030208@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131143220.8028@hymn34.u.washington.edu>


On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, Ed Murphy wrote:
> G. wrote:
>> You know, I haven't followed all the ins and outs of the arguments, but
>> I really don't thing dependent actions have to be judged broken.
>> [...]
>
> This is basically how c. argued when judging CFJ 2670.

Oh sorry, I saw the meta-discussion about how it was a throwaway scam
argument and didn't read it.  Other than manipulating the assignment
I don't see what's wrong with it particularly...  -G.





From penguinofthegods at googlemail.com  Mon Sep 14 09:16:19 2009
From: penguinofthegods at googlemail.com (Elliott Hird)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:16:19 +0100
Subject: BAK: Agoranomic.org down
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
References: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <784a579e0909131616m59a3e55fxaf8158e732a6d5b3@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/13 Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com>:
> Agoranomic.org is down. Since actions taken to a-b or a-o will still
> occur even if the site is down, please list what you've done to a-b/a-o
> since the last message to ensure the game state is consistent and
> refrain from taking actions to those lists in the meanwhile.

Just a little dictatorship scam.


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 09:50:00 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:50 +0000
Subject: BAK: [IADoP] Interstellar Manifest
Message-ID: <20090913235122.E0019126B@Talisman>

OFFICES
=======

Title         Holder        Since       Election    II
------------------------------------------------------
Accountor     coppro        2009-08-10  2009-05-05  1
Ambassador    C-walker      2009-08-29  2009-08-21  1
Anarchist     BobTHJ        2009-08-12  2009-08-08  2
Assessor      Murphy        2009-02-16  2009-05-08  2
CotC          Murphy        2008-01-23  2009-06-01  3
Grand Poobah  Tiger         2009-08-21  2009-08-07  2
Herald        BobTHJ        2009-08-29  2009-08-21  1
IADoP         coppro        2009-07-06  2009-09-13  2
Insulator     BobTHJ        2009-05-08  2009-09-13  2
Janitor       coppro        2009-08-19  2009-08-11  1
Notary        ais523        2009-02-08  2009-05-08  3
Promotor      Wooble        2009-08-02  2009-07-15  3
Registrar     Wooble        2009-07-31  2009-07-15  1
Rulekeepor    comex         2009-08-19  2009-08-14  3
Scorekeepor   BobTHJ        2009-05-31  2009-05-26  2
Speaker       ais523        2009-08-02  *Imposed*   1
Tailor        coppro        2009-05-13  2009-08-07  1

ONGOING ELECTIONS
=================

Quorum: 6

IADoP
  Initiated: 2009-09-13 01:58
  Candidates: coppro
  Unaccepted Nominations: 
  Nominations Declined by: 

Insulator
  Initiated: 2009-09-13 01:58
  Candidates: BobTHJ
  Unaccepted Nominations: 
  Nominations Declined by: 

OFFICIAL REPORTS
================

Office        Report                       Period   Last        Status
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Accountor     Salary, Office Salary        weekly   2009-09-13  On time
Accountor     Assets                       monthly  2009-09-06  On time
Ambassador    Foreign Relations            weekly   2009-09-01  Due
Anarchist     Deck of Change               weekly   2009-09-10  On time
Anarchist     Anarchy Attempts             monthly  2009-09-04  On time
Assessor      Last Emergency Session       monthly  2009-08-16  Due
CotC          Cases, Postures, Ranks       weekly   2009-08-29  Overdue
Grand Poobah  Caste, Deck of Government    weekly   2009-09-10  On time
Herald        Major Arcana deck            weekly   2009-09-10  On time
Herald        Patent Titles                monthly  2009-09-10  On time
IADoP         Offices, Reports             weekly   2009-09-06  Due
Insulator     Rests, NoVs, Deck of Justic  weekly   2009-09-10  On time
Notary        Contract Switches            weekly   2009-09-13  On time
Notary        Contract Text and Parties    monthly  2009-08-07  Due
Promotor      Proposal Pool                weekly   2009-09-01  Due
Registrar     Players, Fora                weekly   2009-09-11  On time
Rulekeepor    Short Logical Ruleset        weekly   2009-09-10  On time
Rulekeepor    Full Logical Ruleset         monthly  2009-09-01  On time
Scorekeepor   Contests, Scores, Medals     weekly   2009-09-10  On time
Tailor        Ribbons                      monthly  2009-09-06  On time

PERIODIC NON-REPORT DUTIES
==========================

Office        Duty                         Period   Last        Status
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Accountor     Report Salary for month      monthly  2009-09-01  On time
Ambassador    Update NomicWiki             monthly  2009-06-30  Overdue
Anarchist     Propose repeals              weekly   2009-09-09  On time
Grand Poobah  Cycle castes                 monthly  2009-09-01  On time
Janitor       Propose cleaning             weekly   2009-09-13  On time
Promotor      Distribute Proposals         weekly   2009-09-09  On time

HISTORY OF THE OFFICES
======================

2009-08-02 18:36: coppro initiates an election for Anarchist; allispaul
                  implicitly accepts nomination.
2009-08-03 07:59: BobTHJ nominates emself for Anarchist and accepts
                  implicitly.
2009-08-02 21:19: ais523 assumes Speaker.
2009-08-07 03:55: coppro initiates an election for Tailor; coppro implicitly
                  accepts nomination.
2009-08-07 19:09: BobTHJ initiates an election for Grand Poobah; coppro
                  implicitly accepts nomination.
2009-08-07 19:09: BobTHJ nominates emself for Tailor and accepts implicitly.
2009-08-07 14:16: Wooble nominates emself for Tailor and accepts implicitly.
2009-08-07 20:15: Wooble nominates emself for Grand Poobah and accepts
                  implicitly.
2009-08-07 20:15: ais523 resigns from Ambassador.
2009-08-07 20:17: coppro assumes Ambassador.
2009-08-08 17:40: comex initiates an election for Anarchist; allispaul
                  implicitly accepts nomination.
2009-08-10 04:02: G. resigns from Accountor.
2009-08-10 04:32: coppro assumes Accountor.
2009-08-10 17:54: G. resigns from Herald.
2009-08-05 23:03: Wooble declines nomination for Rulekeepor.
2009-08-11 19:59: Wooble initiates an election for Janitor; coppro
                  implicitly accepts nomination.
2009-08-12 22:44: Anarchist election ends, BobTHJ is installed.
2009-08-12 23:00: Rulekeepor election ends, comex retains office.
2009-08-08 21:44: Tiger nominates emself for Grand Poobah and accepts
                  implicitly.
2009-08-14 18:26: coppro initiates an election for Rulekeepor; comex
                  implicitly accepts nomination.
2009-08-14 18:34: Wooble nominates emself for Rulekeepor and accepts
                  implicitly.
2009-08-19 21:01: Rulekeepor election ends, comex retains office.
2009-08-21 17:49: coppro initiates an election for Ambassador; coppro
                  implicitly accepts nomination.
2009-08-13 07:32: C-walker nominates emself for Janitor and accepts
                  implicitly.
2009-08-21 17:49: coppro nominates C-walker for Ambassador.
2009-08-21 19:02: C-walker accepts nomination for Ambassador.
2009-08-21 19:14: coppro declines nomination for Ambassador.
2009-08-21 19:14: coppro initiates an election for Herald.
2009-08-21 19:30: Grand Poobah election ends, Tiger is installed.
2009-08-21 19:26: Tailor election ends, coppro retains office.
2009-08-21 22:43: BobTHJ nominates emself for Herald and accepts implicitly.
2009-08-29 06:51: Herald election ends, BobTHJ is installed.
2009-08-29 06:51: Ambassador election ends, C-walker is installed.
2009-08-19 12:59: Wooble
                  initiates an election for IADoP; coppro implicitly accepts
                  nomination.
2009-08-29 07:06: Janitor election ends, coppro retains office.
2009-08-29 07:09: Wooble nominates emself for IADoP and accepts implicitly.
2009-08-30 03:38: Yally nominates emself for IADoP and accepts implicitly.
2009-09-13 01:58: coppro
                  initiates an election for IADoP; coppro implicitly accepts
                  nomination.
2009-09-13 01:58: coppro initiates an election for Insulator; BobTHJ
                  implicitly accepts nomination.

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 09:57:04 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:57:04 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Proposal
In-Reply-To: <4AA433DA.5030309@gmail.com>
References: <4AA433DA.5030309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAD86D0.9030506@gmail.com>

Sean Hunt wrote:
> Justiciar Swap (AI=2, II=1)
> {{{
> Amend Rule 2246 to read as follows:
>       A judicial case may be submitted to the Justiciar.  For such a
>       case, the Justiciar CAN, in a timely manner and by announcement,
>       either accept or reject the case. Until the time limit expires
>       or the Justiciar rejects the case, the CotC CANNOT perform any
>       duties with regards to the case and does not incur any obligations
>       with regards to it.
> 
>       If the Justiciar accepts the case, e switches places with the CotC
>       entirely with regards to that case; e receives all obligations and
>       all powers the CotC would receive, and the CotC receives all
>       obligations and powers the Justiciar would receive. This includes
>       any secondary duties required to fulfill obligations (such as
>       rotating the bench). This takes precedence over Rules that would
>       otherwise assign duties and powers regarding a judicial case to
>       the Clerk of the Courts or the Justiciar. A player CAN deputize
>       for Justiciar to perform these duties as if it were an office.
> 
>       All persons are encouraged to submit a case to the Justiciar
>       only when there is a good reason not to submit it to the Clerk
>       of the Courts.
> }}}

I play Distrib-u-Matic to make this Distributable (in before the lock, yo!).

-coppro


From penguinofthegods at googlemail.com  Mon Sep 14 10:35:47 2009
From: penguinofthegods at googlemail.com (Elliott Hird)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:35:47 +0100
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Ambassador Stuff
In-Reply-To: <2972_1252867420_4AAD3D5C_2972_2313480_1_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131143220.8028@hymn34.u.washington.edu>
References: <25158_1252866869_4AAD3B34_25158_7628759_1_4AAD3B0B.6030208@socal.rr.com>
	<2972_1252867420_4AAD3D5C_2972_2313480_1_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131143220.8028@hymn34.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <784a579e0909131735n6ee8a885r1342900bd215ac56@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/13 Kerim Aydin <kerim at u.washington.edu>:
> Oh sorry, I saw the meta-discussion about how it was a throwaway scam
> argument and didn't read it. ?Other than manipulating the assignment
> I don't see what's wrong with it particularly... ?-G.

comex made it. :P


From kerim at u.washington.edu  Mon Sep 14 10:53:02 2009
From: kerim at u.washington.edu (Kerim Aydin)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Ambassador Stuff
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252888562_4AAD8FF2_22662_2254609_2_784a579e0909131735n6ee8a885r1342900bd215ac56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131753020.11041@hymn12.u.washington.edu>


On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Elliott Hird wrote:
> 2009/9/13 Kerim Aydin <kerim at u.washington.edu>:
>> Oh sorry, I saw the meta-discussion about how it was a throwaway scam
>> argument and didn't read it. ?Other than manipulating the assignment
>> I don't see what's wrong with it particularly... ?-G.
>
> comex made it. :P

But comex made it as part of a scam, and e wanted it to be wrong, and 
because e wanted it to be wrong, its being wrong was wrong, right?





From comexk at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:25:05 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:25:05 -0400
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Ambassador Stuff
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252889607_4AAD9407_25156_4211525_1_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131753020.11041@hymn12.u.washington.edu>
References: <22662_1252888562_4AAD8FF2_22662_2254609_2_784a579e0909131735n6ee8a885r1342900bd215ac56@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252889607_4AAD9407_25156_4211525_1_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909131753020.11041@hymn12.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909131825j77c0c235g1fb444f24d733958@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Kerim Aydin <kerim at u.washington.edu> wrote:
> But comex made it as part of a scam, and e wanted it to be wrong, and
> because e wanted it to be wrong, its being wrong was wrong, right?

I was going to judge TRUE without arguments, but ais523 asked me to
come up with something plausible to make the paradox more interesting.
 By the time I finished I was half convinced dependent actions weren't
broken...

If you asked me right now, I'd say the line of reasoning is valid, but
too tenuous-- the text implies "and" strongly enough to take
precedence over good-of-the-game.

/me tries to come up with a "G. is a player" joke and fails

-- 
-c.


From celestialcognition at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 14:43:44 2009
From: celestialcognition at gmail.com (Pavitra)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:43:44 -0500
Subject: BAK: [IADoP] Interstellar Manifest
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252885910_4AAD8596_22662_2253738_5_20090913235122.E0019126B@Talisman>
References: <22662_1252885910_4AAD8596_22662_2253738_5_20090913235122.E0019126B@Talisman>
Message-ID: <4AADCA00.4010401@gmail.com>

Sean Hunt wrote:
> ONGOING ELECTIONS
> =================
> 
> Quorum: 6
> 
> IADoP
>   Initiated: 2009-09-13 01:58
>   Candidates: coppro
>   Unaccepted Nominations: 
>   Nominations Declined by: 
> 
> Insulator
>   Initiated: 2009-09-13 01:58
>   Candidates: BobTHJ
>   Unaccepted Nominations: 
>   Nominations Declined by: 

I have the vague impression there's been a rash of quorum failures
recently. Perhaps indicating with the report who's voted on each open
decision (or, better yet, how many people have voted and who has yet to
vote) would alleviate this. Often the only reminder people get is when
the voting period expires and they're publicly humiliated as slackers.

Of course, with single-candidate elections this may be somewhat less
necessary.

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From rideau3 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 14:47:25 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:47:25 -0600
Subject: BAK: [IADoP] Interstellar Manifest
In-Reply-To: <25148_1252903473_4AADCA31_25148_297889_1_4AADCA00.4010401@gmail.com>
References: <22662_1252885910_4AAD8596_22662_2253738_5_20090913235122.E0019126B@Talisman>
	<25148_1252903473_4AADCA31_25148_297889_1_4AADCA00.4010401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AADCADD.1030005@gmail.com>

Pavitra wrote:
> Sean Hunt wrote:
>> ONGOING ELECTIONS
>> =================
>>
>> Quorum: 6
>>
>> IADoP
>>   Initiated: 2009-09-13 01:58
>>   Candidates: coppro
>>   Unaccepted Nominations: 
>>   Nominations Declined by: 
>>
>> Insulator
>>   Initiated: 2009-09-13 01:58
>>   Candidates: BobTHJ
>>   Unaccepted Nominations: 
>>   Nominations Declined by: 
> 
> I have the vague impression there's been a rash of quorum failures
> recently. Perhaps indicating with the report who's voted on each open
> decision (or, better yet, how many people have voted and who has yet to
> vote) would alleviate this. Often the only reminder people get is when
> the voting period expires and they're publicly humiliated as slackers.
> 
> Of course, with single-candidate elections this may be somewhat less
> necessary.

There haven't been any recent elections to speak of, except the IADoP 
election which, while quorate, got canceled before it could be resolved 
(how sad).


From geoffspear at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 22:39:58 2009
From: geoffspear at gmail.com (Geoffrey Spear)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 08:39:58 -0400
Subject: BAK: self-nom
Message-ID: <cf0c2a990909140539y5782c1btcdbb0453677e9333@mail.gmail.com>

I nominate myself as IADoP.


From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Mon Sep 14 23:12:36 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:12:36 -0700
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE4144.9050403@socal.rr.com>

> 6476 O 1 1.0 Yally               No More Paradox
AGAINST x my voting limit (you meant 2138, and it should be "The date
when that office's report was not published (not including the
publication of the IADoP's report in which it appears)")
> 6477 O 1 1.0 C-walker            FRC Recognition
FOR x my voting limit
> 6478 D 1 2.0 Pavitra             No Vacancy v.2
AGAINST (not significantly different from deputisation for an office
without an active holder; remove "first-class"; rename "Postulated"
to "Elected" or "Chosen"; update last paragraph of Rule 1006)
> 6479 O 1 1.0 G.                  Flag fix
FOR x my voting limit
> 6480 O 1 1.5 Murphy              About a cord a day
FOR x my voting limit
> 6481 D 1 2.0 Wooble              PNP cleanup
AGAINST (attempting to freeze c. out of the assets is a bold move, and
deserves to be challenged accordingly)
> 6482 D 1 3.0 c.                  Kick out inactive officers quickly
FOR
> 6483 D 1 2.0 Pavitra             Trivial Judgements 1.1
FOR (but s/N is the 4/N is 4/)
> 6484 D 0 3.0 BobTHJ              Cleanliness Anarchy
AGAINST
> 6485 D 1 2.0 Murphy              Entanglement
FOR
> 6486 D 1 2.0 BobTHJ              Audit Cleanup
FOR
> 6487 D 1 2.0 coppro              Audits are Too Severe
FOR
> 6488 D 1 2.0 Murphy              Fix audits
FOR
> 6489 O 0 1.0 Murphy              Chaotic fix
FOR x my voting limit
> 6490 D 3 2.0 coppro              Mutinous Military
FOR (new complex stuff that I'm not forced to track is always fun)
> 6491 D 0 2.0 BobTHJ              Democratic Anarcy
AGAINST
> 6492 D 1 3.0 Murphy              Three-tier voting limits
FOR
> 6493 O 0 1.0 coppro              Official Acronym
FOR x my voting limit
> 6494 D 0 3.0 coppro              Distribution Refactoring
FOR (but s/Voting and Adoption of/Voting on and Adoption of/)


From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Mon Sep 14 23:20:24 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:20:24 -0700
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals
	6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <4AA86976.6020405@gmail.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AA86976.6020405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE4318.5010606@socal.rr.com>

coppro wrote:

> (note to the Assessor: I am fully aware my voting limit is not 12)

According to my records, your voting limit on ordinary proposals is 5.


From geoffspear at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 23:21:07 2009
From: geoffspear at gmail.com (Geoffrey Spear)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:21:07 -0400
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252933990_4AAE4165_22662_2267376_1_4AAE4144.9050403@socal.rr.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<22662_1252933990_4AAE4165_22662_2267376_1_4AAE4144.9050403@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <cf0c2a990909140621v5e6a95e5y60df9a318386b1f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Ed Murphy <emurphy42 at socal.rr.com> wrote:
>> 6481 D 1 2.0 Wooble ? ? ? ? ? ? ?PNP cleanup
> AGAINST (attempting to freeze c. out of the assets is a bold move, and
> deserves to be challenged accordingly)

c. wasn't a party to the contract at the time the proposal was
submitted, and hasn't actually done anything in PerlNomic except a
couple of scams.  I didn't find splitting the assets between the 2
people actually involved in their creation to be at all controversial.


From comexk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 00:26:03 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:26:03 -0400
Subject: BAK: A complaint
Message-ID: <6bf32280909140726v673cca15wd74d968857019299@mail.gmail.com>

The jury is still out on whether I have a dictatorship over the PNP
(specifically ais523 and Wooble)-- CFJ 2676 has not yet been assigned.
 (H. CotC Murphy, why not?  you're two days past the deadline.)

If I have a dictatorship, then I intend to exchange it for some small
prize once the controversy has been resolved.

If not, that's fine.

My complaint, however, is that Proposal 6481 (PNP cleanup) seems to be
passing.  If I don't have a dictatorship, it's a reasonable cleanup
for the PNP, but if I do, the proposal removes it.  I did break
PerlNomic's metarules by doing something destructive with a
dictatorship, but otherwise I don't see anything particularly "bad
form" about the scam-- if I'm missing something, enlighten me.  And
IMO it's not Agoran custom to undo a legitimate scam by proposal.

What should I do now?  I do hereby vote AGAINST myself, and I suppose
I could act on behalf of ais523 and Wooble to vote AGAINST (at the
cost of muddling the voting results), but it might pass anyway.

-- 
-c.


From AIS523 at bham.ac.uk  Tue Sep 15 01:09:01 2009
From: AIS523 at bham.ac.uk (Alexander Smith)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:09:01 +0100
Subject: BAK: A complaint
References: <22664_1252938382_4AAE528E_22664_4326462_1_6bf32280909140726v673cca15wd74d968857019299@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DC6B120FC56E624FB73CF444630BAB465066DC@engmail3.adf.bham.ac.uk>

comex wrote:
> The jury is still out on whether I have a dictatorship over the PNP
> (specifically ais523 and Wooble)-- CFJ 2676 has not yet been assigned.
> (H. CotC Murphy, why not?  you're two days past the deadline.)
>
> If I have a dictatorship, then I intend to exchange it for some small
> prize once the controversy has been resolved.
> 
> If not, that's fine.
> 
> My complaint, however, is that Proposal 6481 (PNP cleanup) seems to be
> passing.  If I don't have a dictatorship, it's a reasonable cleanup
> for the PNP, but if I do, the proposal removes it.  I did break
> PerlNomic's metarules by doing something destructive with a
> dictatorship, but otherwise I don't see anything particularly "bad
> form" about the scam-- if I'm missing something, enlighten me.  And
> IMO it's not Agoran custom to undo a legitimate scam by proposal.
> 
> What should I do now?  I do hereby vote AGAINST myself, and I suppose
> I could act on behalf of ais523 and Wooble to vote AGAINST (at the
> cost of muddling the voting results), but it might pass anyway.

Note that the proposal in question was not intended as a mousetrap
release; rather, it was submitted before your attempted scam started.
And whether there's a mousetrap or not, the proposal is probably a good
thing; the PNP is dead with respect to its original intended purpose
(being a partnership). You weren't even party to the PNP when the
proposal was submitted.

It's not Agoran custom to hold up a legitimate proposal just because
someone attempted a relevant scam in the meantime. It should be the
scamster's responsibility to ensure that eir scam will not be undone
by a legitimate proposal that's already in the pool at the time.

(Note that even if the proposal were intended as a mousetrap release,
it's considered very bad form to exploit a loophole while there's
already a proposal in the works to fix it!)

-- 
ais523
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From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 01:41:03 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:41:03 -0600
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Anarchist] Deck of Change Report
In-Reply-To: <22666_1252862671_4AAD2ACF_22666_7778594_1_4AAD2ABB.80600@gmail.com>
References: <56732cfd0909101319s5678a027xaf69a5e00431010f@mail.gmail.com>
	<22666_1252862671_4AAD2ACF_22666_7778594_1_4AAD2ABB.80600@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909140841l2c892021y365e83ca4825af23@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:24, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Roger Hicks wrote:
>> c.
>> ? ?Committee x3
>> ? ?Distrib-u-Matic x5
>> ? ?Supersize Me x2
>>
>> coppro
>> ? ?Committee x2
>> ? ?Distrib-u-Matic x4
>> ? ?Your Turn x3
>
> CoE: c-walker probably has some Cards.
> CoE on the Insulator's report: c-walker probably has some Cards

I admit these CoEs, not because I believe my report to be flawed, but
because it is impossible to publish an accurate report when holdings
are in dispute.

BobTHJ

>
> I transfer a prop from BobTHJ, who copped out, to Tiger, who didn't.
>
> -coppro
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nomic mailing list
> Nomic at yoyo.its.monash.edu.au
> http://yoyo.its.monash.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/nomic
>


From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 01:48:15 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:48:15 -0600
Subject: BAK: Agoranomic.org down
In-Reply-To: <2974_1252811085_4AAC614D_2974_4467442_1_4AAC6139.5010705@gmail.com>
References: <25156_1252807765_4AAC5455_25156_4185827_1_4AAC5441.3040003@gmail.com>
	<2970_1252810224_4AAC5DF0_2970_1140916_1_6bf32280909121950q1c84ff1cm4d09e1958287b146@mail.gmail.com>
	<2974_1252811085_4AAC614D_2974_4467442_1_4AAC6139.5010705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909140848w6cdd125bi23579a806801db52@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 21:04, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, right. If I do not have any No Confidence cards, I perform the
> following:
>
> I withdraw 2 No Confidence cards.
> I agree to the following pledge entitled "Ensure things fail":
> { This is a public pledge. coppro CAN act on behalf of it by
> announcement, but SHALL NOT cause it to terminate if it owns any assets. }
> I transfer all my zm to Ensure things fail.
> I play No Confidence, specifying IADoP.
> I initiate an Insulator election.
>
You have a No Confidence, so none of this occurs.

BobTHJ


From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 01:49:26 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:49:26 -0600
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909140849x32e91ad1qc233e415f12f4d9c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:33, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sean Hunt wrote:
>> I IBA-deposit a WRV.
>> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
>>
>> -coppro
> Oops.
> I act on behalf of "Ensure things fail" to transfer all its zm to me.
> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
> I transfer all my zm to "Ensure things fail."
> -coppro
>
There is no contract / entity known as "Ensure things fail". Your
attempted withdraw is the only successful action in this batch.

BobTHJ


From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 03:51:44 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:51:44 -0700
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals
	6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <56732cfd0909111022y2ea09246jedd4f8054f280b39@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<56732cfd0909111022y2ea09246jedd4f8054f280b39@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE82B0.2030802@socal.rr.com>

BobTHJ wrote:

>> 6476 O 1 1.0 Yally               No More Paradox
> PRESENT

Your voting limit on ordinary proposals is 0 due to rests.


From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 03:54:13 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:54:13 -0700
Subject: BAK: DIS: Re: BUS: Possible tortoise
In-Reply-To: <1252751407.2105.0.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
References: <4AA8B6EB.1030402@socal.rr.com>
	<6bf32280909100457i5bc3bc77j68b27bf471808b90@mail.gmail.com>
	<56732cfd0909100853t288e5cbfk6db313f57dcd5060@mail.gmail.com>
	<6bf32280909101003s44ef6705r968ce9abec0b71b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<1252751407.2105.0.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE8345.6070907@socal.rr.com>

ais523 wrote:

> On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 13:03 -0400, comex wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Roger Hicks <pidgepot at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Note that I intentionally withheld an opinion, because my opinion
>>> would be to AFFIRM with an error rating. I'm still of the opinion that
>>> the conditions can not be ANDed together or the rule would have been
>>> broken all along. The only logical way to interpret the rule is to OR
>>> the conditions. I realize I may be alone in this belief. I recommend
>>> the Justicar REASSIGN.
>> NoV: BoBTHJ violated Rule 911 (Power-1.7) by failing to publish an
>> opinion on CFJ 2670a ASAP after a panel containing em was assigned.
>>
>> I contest this and initiate a criminal case, requesting double ress
>> because e freely admitted to withholding an opinion to obstruct the
>> rest of the panel.  (I don't object to this from a gameplay
>> perspective, but I do object to scams that violate the rules.)
> 
> Arguments: CFJ 2670a may not have existed in the first place.

Arguments: If CFJ 2670a does exist, then it has not had a panel
assigned to it (the panel allegedly assigned was ineligible because
ehird was supine), so definitely NOT GUILTY.



From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 03:56:28 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:56:28 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals
	6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <2972_1252950751_4AAE82DF_2972_2350164_1_4AAE82B0.2030802@socal.rr.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<56732cfd0909111022y2ea09246jedd4f8054f280b39@mail.gmail.com>
	<2972_1252950751_4AAE82DF_2972_2350164_1_4AAE82B0.2030802@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909141056j7010a025if24d2b9075bc883c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:51, Ed Murphy <emurphy42 at socal.rr.com> wrote:
> BobTHJ wrote:
>
>>> 6476 O 1 1.0 Yally ? ? ? ? ? ? ? No More Paradox
>> PRESENT
>
> Your voting limit on ordinary proposals is 0 due to rests.
>
I may be wrong, but I believe it wasn't at the start of the voting period.

BobTHJ


From jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:02:20 2009
From: jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com (Jonatan Kilhamn)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:02:20 +0200
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/11 Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com>:
> Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
>>
>> ? ? ? === Grand Poobah's Deck of Government report ===
>>
>> Date of this report: Thu 10 Sep 2009
>> Date of last report: Wed 02 Aug 2009
>>
>> --- Card Holdings ---
>>
>> Player ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? R ?A ?L ?E ?D ?O ?K ?N ?G ? Total
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> ais523 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?10 ?2 ?0 ?1 ?2 ?1 ?3 ?1 ?0 ? ?20
>> allispaul ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ? ? 4
>> BobTHJ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2 ?3 ?4 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?0 ? ?11
>> c. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 9 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?4 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?0 ? ?14
>> coppro ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?11 ?7 ?3 ?4 ?1 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?0 ? ?28
>> c-walker* ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?7 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?1 ?1 ?1 ?0 ?0 ? ?11
>> Dvorak Herring ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?1 ?0 ? ? 4
>> ehird ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ? ? 3
>> gwen ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 0 ?0 ?2 ?1 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ? ? 4
>> JonnyRotten ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?0 ?0 ? ? 4
>> Luke Lockhart ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?0 ?0 ? ? 4
>> Manu ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?0 ?0 ? ? 4
>> Murphy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?21 ?4 ?2 ?2 ?2 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?0 ? ?33
>
> CoE: Murphy's Roll Call and Arm-Twist plays failed.
>
> -coppro
>
Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
(However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
played and destroyed.)

-- 
-Tiger

From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 04:03:03 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:03:03 -0700
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <25152_1252934507_4AAE436A_25152_1252180_1_cf0c2a990909140621v5e6a95e5y60df9a318386b1f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<22662_1252933990_4AAE4165_22662_2267376_1_4AAE4144.9050403@socal.rr.com>
	<25152_1252934507_4AAE436A_25152_1252180_1_cf0c2a990909140621v5e6a95e5y60df9a318386b1f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE8557.3040506@socal.rr.com>

Wooble wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Ed Murphy <emurphy42 at socal.rr.com> wrote:
>>> 6481 D 1 2.0 Wooble              PNP cleanup
>> AGAINST (attempting to freeze c. out of the assets is a bold move, and
>> deserves to be challenged accordingly)
> 
> c. wasn't a party to the contract at the time the proposal was
> submitted, and hasn't actually done anything in PerlNomic except a
> couple of scams.  I didn't find splitting the assets between the 2
> people actually involved in their creation to be at all controversial.

I retract my vote and vote FOR.  I may change my mind if c. publishes
a rebuttal (I haven't been tracking the PNP closely).


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:36:29 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:36:29 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>

Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
> Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
> clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
> but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
> (However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
> misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
> precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
> played and destroyed.)
> 

The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
I reissue the CoE.

-coppro


From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:40:47 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:40:47 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:36, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
>> Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
>> clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
>> but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
>> (However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
>> misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
>> precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
>> played and destroyed.)
>>
>
> The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
> I reissue the CoE.
>
Is there a CFJ pending on this? because if not recordkeepor consensus
was that there was no conflict requiring precedence.

BobTHJ


From comexk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:43:05 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:43:05 -0400
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252951424_4AAE8580_25156_4239627_1_4AAE8557.3040506@socal.rr.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<22662_1252933990_4AAE4165_22662_2267376_1_4AAE4144.9050403@socal.rr.com>
	<25152_1252934507_4AAE436A_25152_1252180_1_cf0c2a990909140621v5e6a95e5y60df9a318386b1f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252951424_4AAE8580_25156_4239627_1_4AAE8557.3040506@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909141143t48d1d49fhe633686843021922@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Ed Murphy <emurphy42 at socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Wooble wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Ed Murphy <emurphy42 at socal.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> 6481 D 1 2.0 Wooble ? ? ? ? ? ? ?PNP cleanup
>>> AGAINST (attempting to freeze c. out of the assets is a bold move, and
>>> deserves to be challenged accordingly)
>>
>> c. wasn't a party to the contract at the time the proposal was
>> submitted, and hasn't actually done anything in PerlNomic except a
>> couple of scams. ?I didn't find splitting the assets between the 2
>> people actually involved in their creation to be at all controversial.
>
> I retract my vote and vote FOR. ?I may change my mind if c. publishes
> a rebuttal (I haven't been tracking the PNP closely).

I did so.  In summary: whether or not I have a dictatorship over the
contract is still unknown because you didn't assign a judge, and
repealing a dictatorship by proposal is bad form.

-- 
-c.


From comexk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:45:14 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:45:14 -0400
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25156_4240509_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25156_4240509_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909141145s597a12ebsabe37a02341e81ab@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Roger Hicks <pidgepot at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
>> I reissue the CoE.
>>
> Is there a CFJ pending on this?

Yes.

-- 
-c.


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:47:38 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:47:38 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25156_4240509_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25156_4240509_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE8FCA.70208@gmail.com>

Roger Hicks wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:36, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
>>> Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
>>> clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
>>> but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
>>> (However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
>>> misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
>>> precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
>>> played and destroyed.)
>>>
>> The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
>> I reissue the CoE.
>>
> Is there a CFJ pending on this? because if not recordkeepor consensus
> was that there was no conflict requiring precedence.
> 
> BobTHJ

I believe there is, however, it's rather irrelevant what recordkeepors 
think. The fact of the matter is that the wording of R2156 sets the 
voting limit of its voters, and this takes precedence over R2260 due to 
having equal power but a lower ID number. If itt's found that it wasn't 
fatal to the Arm-Twist play, so be it, but it doesn't matter what the 
recordkeepor says. This is why self-ratification exists - had the report 
gone unchallenged, the potential error in the game state would have been 
ratified and thus we would not be playing in an incorrect game state. 
The potential error was in fact noticed before the self-ratification 
period, meaning that the report should be corrected in accordance with 
the mistake. What a recordkeepor thinks or what seems to be better for 
the game is absolutely irrelevant when faced with the rules, a point you 
seem incapable of learning.

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:49:07 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:49:07 -0600
Subject: BAK: self-nom
In-Reply-To: <2972_1252932037_4AAE39C4_2972_2341583_1_cf0c2a990909140539y5782c1btcdbb0453677e9333@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2972_1252932037_4AAE39C4_2972_2341583_1_cf0c2a990909140539y5782c1btcdbb0453677e9333@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAE9023.60505@gmail.com>

Geoffrey Spear wrote:
> I nominate myself as IADoP.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Nomic mailing list
> Nomic at yoyo.its.monash.edu.au
> http://yoyo.its.monash.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/nomic
I nominate myself for Insulator.

-coppro


From kerim at u.washington.edu  Tue Sep 15 04:55:14 2009
From: kerim at u.washington.edu (Kerim Aydin)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:55:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <22664_1252954074_4AAE8FDA_22664_4333091_1_4AAE8FCA.70208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0909141155140.10009@hymn12.u.washington.edu>


On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Sean Hunt wrote:
> What a recordkeepor thinks or what seems to be better for
> the game is absolutely irrelevant when faced with the rules, a point you
> seem incapable of learning.

We have traditionally given recordkeepors latitude in pre-CFJ resolution
interpretation; if a record is uncertain, recordkeepors have often
recorded their bias (their reasonable belief) in the records with
an asterisk/note of uncertainty.  They have not generally been required
to leave a record "unknown" due to uncertainty; if this were required, 
then frivolous CFJs could prevent recordkeepors from recording a 
reasonable facsimile of the gamestate; the job is undoable otherwise.  
How this relates to the current penalties for inaccuracy is untested.

-G.





From jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 04:59:07 2009
From: jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com (Jonatan Kilhamn)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:59:07 +0200
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <56732cfd0909101304wcd7a1d7udb6e8c48c6783e74@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<56732cfd0909101304wcd7a1d7udb6e8c48c6783e74@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45f964540909141159s57aafbeci846893a1e222aa7a@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/10 Roger Hicks <pidgepot at gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:31, Jonatan Kilhamn
> <jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ? ? ? === Grand Poobah's Deck of Government report ===
>>
>> Date of this report: Thu 10 Sep 2009
>> Date of last report: Wed 02 Aug 2009
>>
>> --- Card Holdings ---
>>
>> Player ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? R ?A ?L ?E ?D ?O ?K ?N ?G ? Total
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> c-walker* ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? 7 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?1 ?1 ?1 ?0 ?0 ? ?11
>
> CoE: C-Walker's holdings may be different (CoEing only to prevent
> self-ratification of these quantities)
>
Admitted.

>> Murphy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?21 ?4 ?2 ?2 ?2 ?1 ?0 ?1 ?0 ? ?33
>
> CoE: Murphy has another No Confidence
>
Denied. Since when?
E has had only one at least the previous two reports, with no CoE on
any of them. There is nothing to be found either in my own history
sections or on a search for No Confidence. Either something happened
when the mailing list was down, or someone misspelled the name of the
card when transferring it. Could you point me to the message where e
gained eir second No Confidence?

>> Pavitra ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?0 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?2 ?1 ?0 ?0 ?0 ? ? 4
>
> CoE: Pavitra's only cards are a Debate-o-Matic and an On the Nod
Admitted, missed eir deposit on Sep 3.

>
>> Industrial Bank of Agora ? ? ? ?15 ?5 ?0 ?0 ?3 ?3 ?5 ?3 ?0 ? ?34
>
> CoE: The IBA has 13 Arm-Twists, 4 Debate-o-Matics, 7 Kill Bills, and 5
> No Confidences.
Mostly admitted, though I only find one of the two No Confidences you
claim it to have. So I admit all IBA CoEs except the No Confidence
one, which I deny.
I then CoE against myself, claiming that it had 4 No Confidence cards.
I accept that CoE.

>
> BobTHJ
>

-- 
-Tiger


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:00:33 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:00:33 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252954539_4AAE91AA_25156_4240799_2_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909141155140.10009@hymn12.u.washington.edu>
References: <25156_1252954539_4AAE91AA_25156_4240799_2_Pine.LNX.4.43.0909141155140.10009@hymn12.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <4AAE92D1.4040604@gmail.com>

Kerim Aydin wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009, Sean Hunt wrote:
>> What a recordkeepor thinks or what seems to be better for
>> the game is absolutely irrelevant when faced with the rules, a point you
>> seem incapable of learning.
> 
> We have traditionally given recordkeepors latitude in pre-CFJ resolution
> interpretation; if a record is uncertain, recordkeepors have often
> recorded their bias (their reasonable belief) in the records with
> an asterisk/note of uncertainty.  They have not generally been required
> to leave a record "unknown" due to uncertainty; if this were required, 
> then frivolous CFJs could prevent recordkeepors from recording a 
> reasonable facsimile of the gamestate; the job is undoable otherwise.  
> How this relates to the current penalties for inaccuracy is untested.
> 
> -G.

Well, by "unknown", I meant that some mark of uncertainty would be 
required. And in this case, the difficulty arose after the report and it 
is not a recordkeepor's duty, in my opinion, to look up every relevant 
rule and determine whether or not a given action succeeded. Tiger's 
report was fine, and not criminally inaccurate in my opinion, but the 
fact that e unknowingly recorded an incorrect game state does not 
automatically mean that such a game state should be considered correct 
(unless, of course, it has been ratified). E should have to accept the 
CoE, or at least hold it until the inquiry case is resolved, possibly 
marking down uncertainty in eir future reports.

-coppro


From jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 05:43:24 2009
From: jonatan.kilhamn at gmail.com (Jonatan Kilhamn)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:43:24 +0200
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45f964540909141243q10a832fcqb6dc5a060258566@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/14 Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com>:
> Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
>> Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
>> clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
>> but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
>> (However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
>> misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
>> precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
>> played and destroyed.)
>>
>
> The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
> I reissue the CoE.
>
Oh, I fail, I just read the first paragraph of that rule...
Denied
I CoE against myself that the plays are disputed and subject of CFJ,
then I admit that CoE.

-- 
-Tiger


From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 06:03:46 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:03:46 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252954077_4AAE8FDC_22662_2271388_1_4AAE8FCA.70208@gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25156_4240509_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
	<22662_1252954077_4AAE8FDC_22662_2271388_1_4AAE8FCA.70208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909141303y52ae6f5ep63c10a8aa816d207@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:47, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Roger Hicks wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:36, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
>>>> Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
>>>> clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
>>>> but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
>>>> (However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
>>>> misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
>>>> precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
>>>> played and destroyed.)
>>>>
>>> The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
>>> I reissue the CoE.
>>>
>> Is there a CFJ pending on this? because if not recordkeepor consensus
>> was that there was no conflict requiring precedence.
>>
>> BobTHJ
>
> I believe there is, however, it's rather irrelevant what recordkeepors
> think. The fact of the matter is that the wording of R2156 sets the
> voting limit of its voters, and this takes precedence over R2260 due to
> having equal power but a lower ID number. If itt's found that it wasn't
> fatal to the Arm-Twist play, so be it, but it doesn't matter what the
> recordkeepor says. This is why self-ratification exists - had the report
> gone unchallenged, the potential error in the game state would have been
> ratified and thus we would not be playing in an incorrect game state.
> The potential error was in fact noticed before the self-ratification
> period, meaning that the report should be corrected in accordance with
> the mistake. What a recordkeepor thinks or what seems to be better for
> the game is absolutely irrelevant when faced with the rules, a point you
> seem incapable of learning.
>
I'm in complete agreement that the text of the rule should be
followed. The 'good of the game' arguments I have made have NOT
contradicted this. Perhaps you'd like to take a moment to review my
past arguments on this issue? Go ahead, I'll wait....


....Where game custom and 'what's good for Agora' come into play is
when there are two (or more) possible ways a rule (or interaction of
rules) can be interpreted. This is one such case. When there are
multiple interpretations, the one that is best for Agora or is most in
spirit with the way the rule was intended should be selected. R2156 is
unclear if it is setting an initial voting limit or a fixed
unchangeable voting limit. The first interpretation should govern as
it is in line with the intent, and is best for agora (by not creating
an unnecessary conflict). The judge of the pending CFJ can decide
which interpretation to use, but if no CFJ were called then the
recordkeepors of the related assets are the ones to make the call (I'm
still in favor of formalizing this).

BobTHJ


From celestialcognition at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 06:04:42 2009
From: celestialcognition at gmail.com (Pavitra)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:04:42 -0500
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252954077_4AAE8FDC_22662_2271388_1_4AAE8FCA.70208@gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25156_4240509_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
	<22662_1252954077_4AAE8FDC_22662_2271388_1_4AAE8FCA.70208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAEA1DA.6000901@gmail.com>

Sean Hunt wrote:
> I believe there is, however, it's rather irrelevant what recordkeepors 
> think. The fact of the matter is that the wording of R2156 sets the 
> voting limit of its voters, and this takes precedence over R2260 due to 
> having equal power but a lower ID number. If itt's found that it wasn't 
> fatal to the Arm-Twist play, so be it, but it doesn't matter what the 
> recordkeepor says. This is why self-ratification exists - had the report 
> gone unchallenged, the potential error in the game state would have been 
> ratified and thus we would not be playing in an incorrect game state. 
> The potential error was in fact noticed before the self-ratification 
> period, meaning that the report should be corrected in accordance with 
> the mistake. What a recordkeepor thinks or what seems to be better for 
> the game is absolutely irrelevant when faced with the rules, a point you 
> seem incapable of learning.
> 
> -coppro

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is what recordkeepors think
(including anyone who's unofficially paying attention). This fact is
formalized in the Rules in, as you said, self-ratification. It
ultimately _doesn't matter_ if the game is "really" in state X if
everyone is playing as if it were in state Y.

But this is a philosophical argument. I think what's going on is that
BobTHJ seems to equate (as, I suspect, most Agorans do) "there is a
CFJ/NoV pending" with "the report has been challenged", generally
assuming in the absence of such a challenge that recordkeepor consensus
is true (or at least will be allowed to ratify, which is close enough
for rock'n'roll).

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From taralx at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 07:11:38 2009
From: taralx at gmail.com (Taral)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:11:38 -0700
Subject: BAK: Mailing list status
Message-ID: <fa0147d90909141411n26a03b2bgaf0bf1bcbfffd8c5@mail.gmail.com>

Looking into it... looks like the box might finally have died permanently. :(

-- 
Taral <taralx at gmail.com>
"Please let me know if there's any further trouble I can give you."
    -- Unknown


From callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 07:40:07 2009
From: callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk (ais523)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:40:07 +0100
Subject: BAK: failure notice
In-Reply-To: <1252963050.4814.0.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
References: <1252963050.4814.0.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
Message-ID: <1252964407.4814.4.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>

I call for judgement on the statement "I favoured a CFJ by Murphy with
the statement 'It is legal to announce that CFJ 2670 was appealed.'". I
favour the CFJ that's the subject of that CFJ (to remove ambiguity).

Arguments:
If a public forum is permanently down, is it possible to send a message
via it?

Evidence:
On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 21:16 +0000, MAILER-DAEMON at yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.
> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> <agora-business at agoranomic.org>:
> Sorry, I couldn't find any host by that name. (#4.1.2)
> I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long.
> 
> --- Below this line is a copy of the message.
> 
> Return-Path: <callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk>
> Received: (qmail 78638 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2009 20:16:23 -0000
> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
>   s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk;
>   h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Subject:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Date:Message-Id:Mime-Version:X-Mailer:Content-Transfer-Encoding;
>   b=ScDvJB7syjOflT87PUZdg66pMIO6/WLJqlel5srkN86sn8Za9ajSebZkIqIADQkl8kCdPjLqvlVJAgKqRjhV18kzXm46mu4oLNFfZqXevKpEL1EhHr2Z1dON1FQTtLFANFurgGVvSi1VIHkPAaWtiM+kwseqEvmToQ5Bs1+dOjY=  ;
> Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.2?) (callforjudgement at 92.236.187.64 with login)
>   by smtp102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2009 20:16:23 -0000
> X-Yahoo-SMTP: 7C88zJGswBBls6IFEzuZZvDUDGQ3T01VrDEZ4Y4-
> X-YMail-OSG: 7tJ78fcVM1myGttAcm8EYRvB2cOEaUk6yoIwph8vNSLgUbDxX0D8AcRni7.D0nJEhzwWTMq2CA5DUmSOho9ABuHIYjEA2sIh3nfuckWel.QiX3O9nGxDFc4AGUYtknl3U4Be0grHmxl0_X41LFqOoKqoJ3OQxG1HhZxk7Q9magW4MkoFOd_c_K9qiwvv5sWy8BDEA4s.VK5Ot1A-
> X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
> Subject: Re: BUS: Possible tortoise
> From: ais523 <callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk>
> To: agora-business at agoranomic.org
> In-Reply-To: <4AA8B6EB.1030402 at socal.rr.com>
> References: <4AA8B6EB.1030402 at socal.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:16:21 +0100
> Message-Id: <1252872981.4804.0.camel at dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.1 
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 01:20 -0700, Ed Murphy wrote:
> > CFJ:  It is legal to announce that CFJ 2670 was appealed.
> > 
> > Arguments:
> > 
> > The original judgement of CFJ 2670 finds that actions with support are
> > not broken.  Allegedly, it was appealed, and the appeal was judged
> > OVERRULE/FALSE, i.e. actions with support are broken.  But this appeal
> > was itself allegedly initiated with support, i.e. if it exists then it
> > sets precedent implying that it doesn't exist, and if it doesn't exist
> > then the original judgement sets precedent implying that it does exist.
> > 
> > [end arguments]
> > 
> > I transfer a prop from BobTHJ (for messing up Rule 2124) to ehird (for
> > pointing out CFJ 2670a's self-negating nature).
> 
> I favour this case.

-- 
ais523



From callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Sep 15 07:56:41 2009
From: callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk (ais523)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:56:41 +0100
Subject: BAK: Mailing list status
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252962732_4AAEB1AC_25156_4243829_1_fa0147d90909141411n26a03b2bgaf0bf1bcbfffd8c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25156_1252962732_4AAEB1AC_25156_4243829_1_fa0147d90909141411n26a03b2bgaf0bf1bcbfffd8c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1252965401.4814.6.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 14:11 -0700, Taral wrote:
> Looking into it... looks like the box might finally have died permanently. :(
> 
If agoranomic.org is permanently dead, I'm worried about our archives.
http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html seems to imply that the list admin
can request a copy of their archive, although probably it won't go back
as far as the agoranomic.org archives; but it would be a tragedy if the
history of our gameplay over the last several years were lost.

Presumably, various players are also keeping private archives; this
might be a good time to publish them somewhere.

-- 
ais523



From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 08:29:31 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:29:31 -0700
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Grand Poobah] Deck of Government report
In-Reply-To: <25158_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25158_7691243_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f964540909101131s17884439k885a34eb8ec5b31e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAA97D9.6090504@gmail.com>
	<22658_1252951360_4AAE853F_22658_631582_1_45f964540909141102j4f9bc072qc203db80a1762caa@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252953401_4AAE8D39_25156_4240379_1_4AAE8D2D.1020703@gmail.com>
	<25158_1252953681_4AAE8E51_25158_7691243_1_56732cfd0909141140m5bada228n49e21b7c3e4a3868@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAEC3CB.2050008@socal.rr.com>

BobTHJ wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:36, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
>>> Denied. The Roll Call plays didn't happen because of eir conditional
>>> clause in the playing message and eir own already high voting limit,
>>> but the Arm-Twist plays succeeded.
>>> (However, they both had the opposite of the intended effect due to a
>>> misprint in the rules, and possible no effect at all due to a
>>> precedence failure, but that does not affect the fact that they were
>>> played and destroyed.)
>>>
>> The Arm-Twist plays did not occur if precedence failed, see R2256/2.
>> I reissue the CoE.
>>
> Is there a CFJ pending on this? because if not recordkeepor consensus
> was that there was no conflict requiring precedence.

http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2682



From comexk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 09:31:14 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:31:14 -0400
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909141631w34fb5ee9k840fb84ed1e2f61@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I IBA-deposit a WRV.
> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.

These both succeed.

On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.

Only one of these withdraws succeeds.

-- 
-c.


From comexk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 09:32:32 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:32:32 -0400
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <2968_1252971092_4AAED254_2968_610265_1_6bf32280909141631w34fb5ee9k840fb84ed1e2f61@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
	<2968_1252971092_4AAED254_2968_610265_1_6bf32280909141631w34fb5ee9k840fb84ed1e2f61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bf32280909141632m5e480605u16d468ee94939038@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:31 PM, comex <comexk at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
>
> Only one of these withdraws succeeds.

Oops, none succeeds because the IBA is out of Absolv-o-Matics.

-- 
-c.


From comexk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 09:33:47 2009
From: comexk at gmail.com (comex)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:33:47 -0400
Subject: BAK: [IBA] Report
Message-ID: <6bf32280909141633g10b1c172kaf50b509fb32f44c@mail.gmail.com>

===============================================================================

Industrial Bank & Agora Report
Date of this report: 14 September 2009

President of the IBA: comex

===============================================================================

Current Holdings:

Nickname                     zm
---------------------------------
*BobTHJ                      764
*C-walker                    345
*comex                       526
*coppro                      45
*Murphy                      270
*Pavitra                     1048
*Taral                       480
*Tiger                       377
*woggle                      447
Wooble                       182

* IBA party

All IBA parties are listed.  All other persons have no zm.

===============================================================================

Unfilled Offers (can be filled by announcement):

* Pavitra [150zm]: Play Lobbyist, specifying Pavitra.

(ISELL votes not included.)

===============================================================================

Current Rates:

asset           rate (zm)    # in bank
-------------------------------------

-- AAA
0 Crop          11            13
1 Crop          11            2
2 Crop          45
3 Crop          21            9
4 Crop          23
5 Crop          27
6 Crop          50            7
7 Crop          19
8 Crop          12
9 Crop          11            8
X Crop          100           12
WRV             130           9

-- Cards (Government)
Roll Call       20            15
Debate-o-Matic  20            5
Arm-twist       45            14
On the Nod      45            3
Kill Bill       110           7
Lobbyist        110
Local Election  110
No Confidence   55            5
Goverment Ball  500

-- Cards (Change)
Distrib-u-Matic 25            3
Committee       30            2
Your Turn       30
Presto!         150
Not Your Turn   250
Supersize Me    30
Shrink Potion   50
Change Ball     500

-- Cards (Justice)
Absolv-o-Matic  45
Stool Pigeon    40
Drop your Wea.. 80
Discard Picking 130
Justice Ball    500
Penalty Box     175

* Drop your Wea.. = Drop your Weapon

-- misc

X Point         15
Y Point         15
Medal           1500

===============================================================================

History:

03 June 2009 02:44:03      Pavitra +623zm (0c, 7*1c, 2*3c, 2*4c, 2*5c,
                                           2*6c, 7c, 3*8c, 13*9c, 4*Xc)
14 June 2009 19:37:25      woggle +200zm (4*6c)
                                  -109zm (2*5c, 7c, 3*8c)
14 June 2009 20:13:55      Tiger +275zm (2*Xc, 3*7c, 2*0c)
                                 -145zm (1c, 4c, 2*6c, 9c)

16 August 2009 15:51:29    BobTHJ +108zm (6c, 5c, 7c, 8c)

19 August 2009 04:07:40    BobTHJ +27zm (5c)
21 August 2009 03:47:29    comex +320zm (2*LE, NC, OtN)
21 August 2009 20:34:19    coppro +130zm (WRV)
21 August 2009 20:37:14    BobTHJ -130zm (WRV)
21 August 2009 22:43:29    BobTHJ +85zm (RC, DoM, At)
22 August 2009 15:01:09    C-walker +135zm (3*AoM)
23 August 2009 21:49:09    woggle +300zm (3*Xc)
                                  -31zm (8c, 7c)
25 August 2009 20:18:10    Tiger +164zm (10*0c, 9*3c, 2*At, 2*Com,
                                         OtN, RC)
25 August 2009 20:30:10    Tiger +0zm (4*7c)
                                 -177zm (2*6c, 2*5c, 4c)
27 August 2009 07:21:10    Murphy +270zm (Lob, 2*DyW)
28 August 2009 22:00:11    BobTHJ +80zm (4*RC)
30 August 2009 15:36:11    coppro +130zm (2*AoM, 2*DoM)
31 August 2009 20:42:11    Tiger +260zm (2*WRV)
31 August 2009 23:39:02    Pavitra +80zm (DyW)
01 September 2009 03:19:03 coppro -30zm
                           comex  +30zm [P6473]
01 September 2009 03:37:03 coppro +520zm (4*WRV)
01 September 2009 21:24:04 Taral +45zm (At)
03 September 2009 16:39:04 Wooble +481zm (4*KB, OtN)
03 September 2009 19:06:03 comex +540zm (2*Lob, LE, KB, NC)
                                  -46zm (2*Com)
03 September 2009 19:51:04 woggle +90zm (2*AoM)
03 September 2009 23:14:03 Pavitra +151zm (2*AoM, DoM, At)
03 September 2009 23:50:04 Taral +175zm (PB)
                                 +260zm (2*WRV)
                           [IBA -PB]
04 September 2009 01:10:04 coppro -550zm (2*Lob, 3*LE)
04 September 2009 01:12:04 woggle -76zm (4*7c)
04 September 2009 19:00:04 Wooble +141zm (9*RC, At)
04 September 2009 19:15:04 Wooble -80zm (DyW)
04 September 2009 19:55:04 Wooble -360zm (8*AoM)
04 September 2009 19:55:07 BobTHJ +594zm (2*KB, 2*NC, 7*At)
04 September 2009 20:35:04 woggle +73zm (3*DuM)
04 September 2009 23:02:05 comex -160zm (2*DyW)
05 September 2009 09:01:04 C-walker +135zm (3*AoM)
05 September 2009 09:07:04 C-walker +57zm (2*Com)
[...ambiguous actions...]  C-walker +18zm
                           comex -128zm
                           [IBA -Lob]
13 September 2009 17:32:05 coppro +130zm (WRV)
                                  -315zm (7*AoM)

===============================================================================

Text of the contract:

I. IBA

This is the Industrial Bank & Agora.  The currency of the IBA is
zorkmids (zm); the recordkeepor of zorkmids is the President.

Any person CAN join this contract by announcement.  Any party to this
contract CAN leave it by announcement, unless e is involved in a
pending Offer, or this contract has less than three parties, in which
case any party CAN dissolve it without objection.

The President of the IBA is comex.

II. Summary

- You can join the contract by announcement.  Please join before
  attempting to make Offers or vote ISELL-- your only obligations are
  to uphold the terms of Offers you make.

- You can deposit 4 assets per week for the standard rate; further
  deposits give you diminishing returns to prevent scams, but you can
  still get a good price for up to 10.

- You can always withdraw assets for the standard rate.

- You can intend to sell or buy assets, naming a price; this is known
  as an Offer, and other parties can fill the Offer by announcement.

- ISELL works like SELL, but you can vote ISELL on dependent
  actions as well as decisions.

III. Banking

Every asset has a Rate in zorkmids, intially zero.  The President's report
includes a Rate List containing all nonzero Rates.

IV. Withdrawal

A person CAN withdraw an asset in the IBA's possession if e has at
least its Rate in zorkmids.  Withdrawing an asset is equivalent to
acting on behalf of the IBA to transfer the asset to the withdrawer;
after a person withdraws an asset, its Rate in zorkmids is destroyed
in eir possession.

V. Deposits

A person CAN deposit an asset by transferring it to the IBA; e then
gains the Effective Rate in zorkmids.

The Effective Rate for a deposit is its Rate, multiplied by a value
depending on the number of previous deposits made in the same week
with the same Executor, and rounded to the nearest integer:

prev    rate

0-3     1.00
4-6     0.90
7-9     0.80
10      0.73
11      0.62
12      0.50
13      0.38
14      0.26
15      0.18
16      0.12
17      0.08
18      0.05
19      0.03
20      0.01
21-     0.00

VI. Offers

An Offer is an entity with three fields:
  Selling:   (a nonempty list of assets, actions, and/or obligations)
  For cost:  (a nonempty list of assets, actions, and/or obligations)
  Repeats:   (a nonnegative integer, or infinity; default 1)

A person CAN create an Offer by announcement, thus becoming its
offerer.  A person CAN destroy an Offer for which e is the offerer by
announcement.

A party (the filler) generally CAN fill an Offer by announcement (and
is authorized to act on behalf of the offerer for this purpose) if the
offerer is a party.  Filling an Offer is equivalent to performing the
following procedure in order, with no other actions inserted between
the start and end of the procedure; and notwithstanding the previous
sentence, if the procedure would not be entirely successful, the Offer
cannot be filled at all:

- the filler acts on behalf of the offerer to transfer the assets in
  the 'Selling' field to the filler, and to take the actions in the
  'Selling' field, and
- the filler transfers the assets in the 'For cost' field to the
  offerer, and takes the actions in the 'For cost' field, and
- the Offer's 'Repeats' field is decreased by one.

The filler SHALL satisfy the obligations (if any) in the 'For cost'
field; the offerer SHALL satisfy the obligations (if any) in the
Selling' field.

An Offer with zero Repeats CANNOT be filled.  A non-pending Offer with
zero Repeats is automatically destroyed.

To intend to sell X for Y is to create an Offer with X as 'Selling'
and Y as 'For cost'; to intend to buy X for Y is to create an Offer
with X as 'For cost' and Y as 'Selling'; to intend to sell A*X for Y
each is to create an Offer with X as 'Selling', Y as 'For cost', and A
as 'Repeats'; etc.

Examples:
- I intend to sell a WRV for 8 zm.
- I intend to sell 4 G# Credits for 2 zm each.
- I intend buy a Land for 3 zm.
- I intend to sell a WRV for a Land.

VII. Selling Votes

Voting ISELL(X) on a decision is equivalent to intending to sell a
number of votes equal to your voting limit on that decision for X.

Voting ISELL(X - A*Y) on a decision (A equals one if not specified) is
equivalent to intending to sell A votes on that decision for X, and
then voting A*Y.

Examples:
- ISELL(8 zm)              - allow all of your votes to be
                             purchased as a block for 8 zm

- ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST*8)  - cast 8 AGAINST votes, which can be purchased
                             as a block for 8 zm

- 8*ISELL(1 zm)            - allow each of your votes to be purchased
                             separately for 1 zm each

- 8*ISELL(1 zm - AGAINST)  - cast 8 AGAINST votes, each of which can
                             be purchased separately for 1 zm

When an Offer is filled that specifies a number of votes on a certain
Agoran decision in the 'Selling' or 'For cost' field, the offerer or
filler respectively
- retracts enough (if any) of eir ballots on that decision that the
  following ballots are valid and do not exceed eir voting limit;
- casts the specified number of ballots with the option specified by
  the other party; and
- SHALL NOT retract these ballots.

If this process is impossible, the Offer CANNOT be filled.
Retractions of ballots caused by this process are performed in the
order the ballots were originally submitted.

VIII. Selling Support/Objection

Opining ISELL(X) on an intent to perform a dependent action is
equivalent to intending to sell an opinion on that action for X.

Opining ISELL(X - Y) on an intent to perform a dependent action is
equivalent to intending to sell an opinion on that action for X, and
then opining Y.

Examples:
- ISELL(4 zm)
- ISELL(4 zm - support)
- ISELL(4 zm - object)

When an Offer is filled that specifies an opinion on a certain
dependent action in the 'Selling' or 'For cost' field, the offerer or
filler respectively
- withdraws all previous support or objection for that action,
- supports or objects to that action, as specified by the other party, and
- SHALL NOT withdraw that support or objection, or thereafter support
  or object to that action.

This process also applies to contract-defined psuedo-dependent
actions whose behavior differs from that of a dependent action only in
the values of time limits, or not at all.

IX. Selling Agreement

When an Offer is filled that specifies agreement to certain terms in
the 'Selling' or 'For cost' field, the offerer or filler respectively
SHALL follow those terms.

X. Motions

A motion is an entity which acts identically to an Agoran decision,
except that the requirement that the voting period last at least seven
days is waived, and, by default:
* the eligible voters are the parties to this contract,
* each eligible voter's voting limit is one,
* quorum is three,
* the voting period lasts 72 hours,
* the vote collector is the President, and
* the vote collector SHALL resolve it as soon as possible after the
  voting period ends.

Any party CAN initiate a Motion to Act, specifying a set of actions to
be performed by this contract.  For this motion, the adoption index is 2.
If the option selected on a Motion to Act is ADOPTED, the vote
collector CAN once act on behalf of this contract to perform those
actions, and the Motion CANNOT be resolved unless the vote collector
does so in the same message, immediately after resolving it.

Submitting a Motion to Amend with a set of amendments to this contract
is equivalent to submitting a Motion to Act specifying that this
contract make those amendments to itself.

XI. Changing the Rates

A Rate List is a list of assets and associated Rates.  To effect a
Rate List is to set the Rate of each asset in the list to the
specified value.

The President CAN effect a Rate List without two objections in 48
hours.  Any party CAN initiate a Motion to Effect, specifying a Rate
List.  For this motion, the adoption index is 1.  If the option
selected on a Motion to Effect is ADOPTED, the specified Rate List is
effected.

XII. Rates are Self-Ratifying

One week after the publication of a Rate List purporting to be part of
the President's report, the Rate List is effected unless, less than a
week after its publication, any person publicly
- challenged the Rate List's veracity, or
- purported to effect a different Rate List.

XIII. The IBA is a Partnership

Parties to this contract SHALL collectively ensure it fulfills its
legal obligations.  If the Sentiment of this contract is ever not
Legalistic, any person CAN flip it to Legalistic by announcement.  If
the Disclosure of this contract is ever not Public, any person CAN
flip it to Public by announcement including its text and list of
parties.

XIV. Pending Offers

A person is involved in an Offer if e is its offerer or filler.  A
pending Offer is an Offer whose effects impose an ongoing, future, or
unsatisfied obligation on a person involved in it.

XV. Presidential Restriction

The President, when performing actions allowed to em by virtue of the
position, SHALL act in good faith, considering the best interests of
this contract and the game.

===============================================================================


From penguinofthegods at googlemail.com  Tue Sep 15 10:31:46 2009
From: penguinofthegods at googlemail.com (Elliott Hird)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 01:31:46 +0100
Subject: BAK: Mailing list status
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252965423_4AAEBC2F_25156_4244768_1_1252965401.4814.6.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
References: <25156_1252962732_4AAEB1AC_25156_4243829_1_fa0147d90909141411n26a03b2bgaf0bf1bcbfffd8c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252965423_4AAEBC2F_25156_4244768_1_1252965401.4814.6.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
Message-ID: <784a579e0909141731ub11b243t80608062960706b@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/14 ais523 <callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk>:
> If agoranomic.org is permanently dead, I'm worried about our archives.
> http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html seems to imply that the list admin
> can request a copy of their archive, although probably it won't go back
> as far as the agoranomic.org archives; but it would be a tragedy if the
> history of our gameplay over the last several years were lost.

sigh

archive.org needs to do mailing lists

If we want to be sure in future, anyone with some internet-connected
storage they're not using say "aye" - could get some distributed
archiving done. I wonder if you can RAID NFS drives.


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 10:33:53 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:53 -0600
Subject: BAK: OFF: [Insulator] Deck of Justice Report
In-Reply-To: <56732cfd0909101323v62a6c571wfbd21edc84915894@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56732cfd0909101323v62a6c571wfbd21edc84915894@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAEE0F1.3050006@gmail.com>

Roger Hicks wrote:
> ais523
>    Absolv-o-Matic x4
>    Drop Your Weapon x2
>    Stool Pidgeon
>
> Lost & Found
>    Dunce Cap

CoE to prevent self-ratification: ais523 might own the Dunce Cap.

-coppro


From rideau3 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 10:35:16 2009
From: rideau3 at gmail.com (Sean Hunt)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:35:16 -0600
Subject: BAK: BUS: c.'s Actions (automated)
In-Reply-To: <000501ca359c$2667fd40$040a0a0a@IIS4>
References: <000501ca359c$2667fd40$040a0a0a@IIS4>
Message-ID: <4AAEE144.4050309@gmail.com>

pidgepot at gmail.com wrote:
> NOTE: Actions taken in this message are on behalf of c. as permitted by contract, and may in turn be on behalf of other recordkeepors and/or officeholders.
> 
> {
> c. is dealt the following card(s) from the deck of Justice, but each such draw is only valid if e is still owed a draw from this deck : Absolv-o-Matic
> }
> Reason: Self-initiated draw(s)
> 
All of these self-deals failed as the specific mechanism of acting on 
behalf was not specified.


From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 12:33:52 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:33:52 -0700
Subject: BAK: BUS: c.'s Actions (automated)
In-Reply-To: <2970_1252974935_4AAEE157_2970_1170775_1_4AAEE144.4050309@gmail.com>
References: <000501ca359c$2667fd40$040a0a0a@IIS4>
	<2970_1252974935_4AAEE157_2970_1170775_1_4AAEE144.4050309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAEFD10.3050303@socal.rr.com>

coppro wrote:

> pidgepot at gmail.com wrote:
>> NOTE: Actions taken in this message are on behalf of c. as permitted by contract, and may in turn be on behalf of other recordkeepors and/or officeholders.
>>
>> {
>> c. is dealt the following card(s) from the deck of Justice, but each such draw is only valid if e is still owed a draw from this deck : Absolv-o-Matic
>> }
>> Reason: Self-initiated draw(s)
>>
> All of these self-deals failed as the specific mechanism of acting on 
> behalf was not specified.

This requirement may arise from Rule 2263's "clearly and unambiguously",
but should really be made explicit.

Would changing the boilerplate intro to the following suffice?

"NOTE: Actions taken in this message are on behalf of c., and in turn
 on behalf of the (Grand Poobah / Insulator / Anarchist) with respect
 to the Deck of (Government / Justice / Change) respectively, as
 permitted by the contract Bob's Janitorial Service".



From pidgepot at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 12:35:42 2009
From: pidgepot at gmail.com (Roger Hicks)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:35:42 -0600
Subject: BAK: Banking
In-Reply-To: <2968_1252971161_4AAED299_2968_610285_1_6bf32280909141632m5e480605u16d468ee94939038@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252863135_4AAD2C9E_22664_4293621_1_4AAD2C93.3060207@gmail.com>
	<22662_1252863214_4AAD2CEE_22662_2250997_1_4AAD2CE2.4090301@gmail.com>
	<2968_1252971092_4AAED254_2968_610265_1_6bf32280909141631w34fb5ee9k840fb84ed1e2f61@mail.gmail.com>
	<2968_1252971161_4AAED299_2968_610285_1_6bf32280909141632m5e480605u16d468ee94939038@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56732cfd0909141935x667716f7idd0e8a12ed46c181@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 17:32, comex <comexk at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 7:31 PM, comex <comexk at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Sean Hunt <rideau3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I IBA-withdraw 7 Absolv-o-Matic.
>>
>> Only one of these withdraws succeeds.
>
> Oops, none succeeds because the IBA is out of Absolv-o-Matics.
>
I show 4 successes in the first batch and none in the second. I
haven't manually double checked this yet, just FYI.

BobTHJ


From celestialcognition at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 14:59:53 2009
From: celestialcognition at gmail.com (Pavitra)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:59:53 -0500
Subject: BAK: [IBA] Report
In-Reply-To: <22664_1252971244_4AAED2EC_22664_4340049_1_6bf32280909141633g10b1c172kaf50b509fb32f44c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <22664_1252971244_4AAED2EC_22664_4340049_1_6bf32280909141633g10b1c172kaf50b509fb32f44c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAF1F49.6000308@gmail.com>

comex wrote:
> Distrib-u-Matic 25            3

I withdraw as many Distrib-u-Matics as I can.

Pavitra

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From emurphy42 at socal.rr.com  Tue Sep 15 17:11:20 2009
From: emurphy42 at socal.rr.com (Ed Murphy)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:11:20 -0700
Subject: BAK: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of
	Proposals	6476-6494
In-Reply-To: <25158_1252951025_4AAE83F1_25158_7689099_2_56732cfd0909141056j7010a025if24d2b9075bc883c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cf0c2a990909091137h7ac3afebx414e050dcf0eb45e@mail.gmail.com>
	<56732cfd0909111022y2ea09246jedd4f8054f280b39@mail.gmail.com>
	<2972_1252950751_4AAE82DF_2972_2350164_1_4AAE82B0.2030802@socal.rr.com>
	<25158_1252951025_4AAE83F1_25158_7689099_2_56732cfd0909141056j7010a025if24d2b9075bc883c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAF3E18.4090200@socal.rr.com>

BobTHJ wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:51, Ed Murphy <emurphy42 at socal.rr.com> wrote:
>> BobTHJ wrote:
>>
>>>> 6476 O 1 1.0 Yally               No More Paradox
>>> PRESENT
>> Your voting limit on ordinary proposals is 0 due to rests.
>>
> I may be wrong, but I believe it wasn't at the start of the voting period.

You gained your current rests from Sep 4-8, the voting period didn't
start till Sep 9.



From taralx at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 06:49:52 2009
From: taralx at gmail.com (Taral)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:49:52 -0700
Subject: BAK: Mailing list status
In-Reply-To: <25156_1252965423_4AAEBC2F_25156_4244768_1_1252965401.4814.6.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
References: <25156_1252962732_4AAEB1AC_25156_4243829_1_fa0147d90909141411n26a03b2bgaf0bf1bcbfffd8c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<25156_1252965423_4AAEBC2F_25156_4244768_1_1252965401.4814.6.camel@dell.linuxdev.us.dell.com>
Message-ID: <fa0147d90909151349x38578d21xcdf64f9a6df553e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:56 PM, ais523 <callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> If agoranomic.org is permanently dead, I'm worried about our archives.
> http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html seems to imply that the list admin
> can request a copy of their archive, although probably it won't go back
> as far as the agoranomic.org archives; but it would be a tragedy if the
> history of our gameplay over the last several years were lost.

No worries. The box has offsite backup. :)

-- 
Taral <taralx at gmail.com>
"Please let me know if there's any further trouble I can give you."
    -- Unknown